# Foreign place names in English **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 8, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999 "2010-07-08T19:18:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/41 "2010-07-09T15:03:56Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > That doesn’t make any sense. It’s not an Algonquian name either, or an Ingushetian name. The point is that “Copenhagen” isn’t a Danish word, so people shouldn’t try to pronounce it the way they think Danish people might pronounce it. (That most Americans have no idea how Danish is pronounced is a different issue. Of all the languages I’ve encountered, the phonology of Danish confuses me the most.) Dutch doesn’t even enter into it. Just a WAG, but I think the ice cream brand “Häagen-Dazs” (made-up foreign sounding name) may have influenced the American pronunciation of Copenhagen somewhat. I know that I personally vacillate between the long-A and short-A pronunciations, and I believe that may be subconsciously responsible for why I do so. Also, I do tend not to use long-A sounds for foreign-looking words, defaulting to an “ah” with words that I analyze as being of foreign extraction, or perhaps “ae” or a schwa to make it flow more inconspicuously with English pronunciation, so that may also have something to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/42 "2010-07-09T17:03:49Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > In the UK the long vowel vs short vowel argument is, broadly speaking, a northern accent vs southern accent thing. So in vast areas of the country the “correct” is very similar to how the French say it. I have friends from Wokingham and I have never understood why “pasta” is pronounced with a flat “a”, which I can recall hearing in no other British pronunciation, especially when the original Italian uses the “a” that is normally found in British pronunciation. 🙂 > [@pulykamell](#): > > Just a WAG, but I think the ice cream brand “Häagen-Dazs” (made-up foreign sounding name) may have influenced the American pronunciation of Copenhagen somewhat. As someone who was 16 when Häagen-Dazs was first nationally distributed, I can tell you that the pronunciation of Copenhagen with the short “a” was already firmly entrenched, and even heard frequently among TV journalists who should have known better. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/43 "2010-07-09T17:48:40Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I have friends from Wokingham and I have never understood why “pasta” is pronounced with a flat “a”, which I can recall hearing in no other British pronunciation, especially when the original Italian uses the “a” that is normally found in British pronunciation. 🙂 I’ve heard British people say this, but it’s not true so far as I can tell, not for standard Italian anyway. First of all, Italian, doesn’t have “long” and “short” vowels. It’s a seven-member “pure” vowel system. Second, Italian’s “a” vowel is a low central vowel [a] (or [ä] if you want to be precise). That would make the Italian pronunciation [pas ta]. The pronunciation I’ve heard British people use is ['pæs tə] (like “has to”). Americans generally say ['pɑs tə] or ['pɒs tə]. To me, [ɑ] or [ɒ] are much more sensible as substitutions for [a] than [æ] is. > [@](#): > > As someone who was 16 when Häagen-Dazs was first nationally distributed, I can tell you that the pronunciation of Copenhagen with the short “a” was already firmly entrenched, and even heard frequently among TV journalists who should have known better. Flat A? Short A? I’m having a hard time understanding what you’re getting at. The general pronunciation of Copenhagen in American English is ['koʊ pən heɪ gən] – last syllable rhyming with “taken.” Hyperelastic was referring to the pronunciation ['koʊ pən ha gən] or ['koʊ pən hɑ gən] or ['koʊ pən hɒ gən] – rhyming with Häagen or toboggan. When you say “short,” are you saying that the common pronunciation was ['koʊ pən hæ gən] – rhyming with “wagon”? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/44 "2010-07-09T18:14:00Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > As far as place names as named by foreigners, see the unofficial FAQ: > > [**Why do we have different names for countries and cities than the natives of those places?**](http://www.seiglefamily.com/gqfaq.html#names) > > That page has links to many related threads, plus a link to the definitive article by **Cecil**. Nice resource! But who is this “moderator Calibri” mentioned on your page? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/45 "2010-07-09T18:22:26Z")
It’s not just countries. In the U.S. most of the native tribes are known by names that they don’t call themselves. Some, such as the Blackfoot and the Creeks and the Nez Percé (French: pierced nose) are called by English or other European names for the tribe, while others such as the Cheyenne, Arapaho and Sioux, are known by the names they were known to by other tribes (sometimes insulting terms) and then this run through a European spin rather than by the names they use to refer to themselves. One reason for this is that many of the native nations never really looked upon all members of their language group as a single entity- they identified with their particular clan and tribal group but may get along much better with another linguistic tribal group they interacted with than with other tribes in their own language group. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/46 "2010-07-09T18:54:14Z")
I am not familiar with the symbols used here but can elaborate upon my imprecise layman’s terms. > [@acsenray](#): > > I’ve heard British people say this, but it’s not true so far as I can tell, not for standard Italian anyway. First of all, Italian, doesn’t have “long” and “short” vowels. It’s a seven-member “pure” vowel system. Agree, though I was not referring to “short” and “long” with regard to Italian, see next item: > [@](#): > > Second, Italian’s “a” vowel is a low central vowel [a] (or [ä] if you want to be precise). That would make the Italian pronunciation [pas ta]. > > The pronunciation I’ve heard British people use is ['pæs tə] (like “has to”). Americans generally say ['pɑs tə] or ['pɒs tə]. To me, [ɑ] or [ɒ] are much more sensible as substitutions for [a] than [æ] is. > > Flat A? Short A? I’m having a hard time understanding what you’re getting at. When I said “flat a” I meant as in the American “past”. To me the English “pasta” is how an American might say, “I _passed a_ pickup truck.” By “short a” I meant as in “father” (though not like the Massachussetts “father”). (I’ll add that as a schoolchild I was taught only about long and short vowels. I can’t remember how the teacher talked her way out of explaining cat, calm, father, and dance.) > [@](#): > > When you say “short,” are you saying that the common pronunciation was ['koʊ pən hæ gən] – rhyming with “wagon”? I meant the a as in father sound. And the schwa that you show here is sometimes just implied rather than clearly articulated. Not sure how you would write that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/47 "2010-07-09T19:35:17Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I am not familiar with the symbols used here but can elaborate upon my imprecise layman’s terms. There’s no better time to learn, especially if you’re interested in pronunciation. It really help clear things up. See, from your first post, I was under the impression that we disagree … > [@](#): > > When I said “flat a” I meant as in the American “past”. To me the English “pasta” is how an American might say, “I _passed a_ pickup truck.” By “short a” I meant as in “father” (though not like the Massachussetts “father”). … When it looks like we more or less actually agree. > [@](#): > > (I’ll add that as a schoolchild I was taught only about long and short vowels. I can’t remember how the teacher talked her way out of explaining cat, calm, father, and dance.) It seems like what you were taught as “short A” in school – [ɑ] as in father – differs from what most Americans are taught as “short A” in school – [æ] as in cat. I encourage you to learn the symbols – they really help in these kinds of discussions! > [@](#): > > And the schwa that you show here is sometimes just implied rather than clearly articulated. Not sure how you would write that. You’d just leave it out, but schwas are so commonly dropped in general American and R.P. that in most cases, it is implicit that a schwa in an unaccented syllable is optional. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/48 "2010-07-09T20:07:03Z")
Helpful chart for IPA symbols – [International Phonetic Alphabet chart for English dialects - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_chart_for_English_dialects) ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/49 "2010-07-09T20:16:08Z")
In addition to omitting the schwa, you could also put a dot under the \ to indicate that it is being treated as syllabic, for what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/50 "2010-07-09T21:32:13Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Helpful chart for IPA symbols – [Sound correspondences between English accents - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_chart_for_English_dialects) I don’t want to go off on (too much of) a tangent, but in reviewing that chart, how do they avoid circular definition? That is, are these sounds defined in a way other than giving an example of a word that uses them? ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/51 "2010-07-09T21:41:15Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Nice resource! But who is this “moderator Calibri” mentioned on your page? 🙂 My thanks to you for noticing and my apologies to **Colibri** for misspelling the name. I’ll correct it in the next “release”. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/52 "2010-07-09T21:42:05Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I don’t want to go off on (too much of) a tangent, but in reviewing that chart, how do they avoid circular definition? That is, are these sounds defined in a way other than giving an example of a word that uses them? Look at the names when you search for the symbols. They all tell you want your mouth is doing: alveolar, front, palatal, etc. and whether it’s voiced or voiceless. Whether that’s meaningful to you or not is another matter, these can be hard to conceive of. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/53 "2010-07-09T22:02:52Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I don’t want to go off on (too much of) a tangent, but in reviewing that chart, how do they avoid circular definition? That is, are these sounds defined in a way other than giving an example of a word that uses them? They are defined by the placement and shape of the lips and tongue and the use of the throat muscles and voice box. I and I’m sure several other Dopers would be happy to answer specific questions about them (maybe a new thread would be good, if you’re interested in that). The examples given in the chart are merely examples; they don’t constitute the basic definitions of the symbols. I like that chart in particular, because it offers a pretty wide range of accents as examples. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/54 "2010-07-09T22:16:27Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > The pronunciation I’ve heard British people use is ['pæs tə] (like “has to”). Americans generally say ['pɑs tə] or ['pɒs tə]. To me, [ɑ] or [ɒ] are much more sensible as substitutions for [a] than [æ] is. Sidenote: While hearing British and American World Cup announcers pronounce Spanish and Italian names, it amazed me how the British tend to use the awful (in this case) [æ] for Spanish/Italian [a], while the Americans pronounce it much closer to the original. It seemed especially odd, since most standard American pronunciation systems use [æ] in certain places where most standard British prounciation systems use [ɑ] – namely, before a consonant cluster. Thus, the British tend to differentiate “can” and “can’t”, whereas Americans tend to pronounce the vowel in these two words the same way. (Then, there are American actors who overcorrect when trying to imitate a British accent, and throw in an [ɑ] even when they shouldn’t…) ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/55 "2010-07-09T22:32:44Z")
- _skalle_ - skullair? - _skalle_ ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/56 "2010-07-10T03:25:37Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > And whilst we’re at it, which is “right”: > > “Moscow” rhyming with “cow” or “oh”? And yes, I know how the Russian’s pronounce it 😉 I gather the English pronunciation comes via German. cow. Quite a few linguists question where the other pronunciation came from. Also, my Polish friend pointed out that, it’s usually only the larger, more famous cities that have Anglicized names. Her hometown, for example did not. The only thing that might happen is trying to pronounce the same letters as if they were an English word. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/57 "2010-07-10T11:25:00Z")
It also doesn’t help when place names change somewhat arbitrarily, too- take Bombay, Calcutta, and Madras, which are now “Officially” known as Mumbai, Kolkata, and Chennai. Yet almost every Indian I’ve met uses the “Old” names, including several who live in those cities. I’ve worked with different media outlets who have different preferences on the matter, and I notice the BBC uses _both_ names in some circumstances. My personal preference is for Bombay/Calcutta/Madras, FWIW. Somewhere like Malacca (_Melaka_ in Malay) has more or less the same name in both languages, but no-one seems to be able to agree which one is the “Right” one to use in English (And to be extra confusing, Malacca Town is located in Melaka State). ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/58 "2010-07-10T13:35:10Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > They are defined by the placement and shape of the lips and tongue and the use of the throat muscles and voice box. Right. Let me just give one example and if the questioner wants more, we can have a new thread. The sound /p/, like English ‘spit’, is referred to as a voiceless bilabial plosive. “Voiceless” means that the vocal cords are not vibrating when it is pronounced. “Bilabial” means that it is articulated using the two lips (other possibilities are “labiodental,” “dental,” “alveolar” (the ridge of palate behind the teeth), “palatal,” “velar” (soft palate), “uvular,” “pharyngeal” – the last three aren’t used in English – and “glottal”). “Plosive” or “stop” means that the sound is made by closing the place of articulation and then suddenly opening it to create a burst of air. Other possibilities include “fricative,” made by constricting the place of articulation and creating turbulence in the air flow; “affricate,” a plosive released to become a fricative; “approximant,” made by restricting the air flow but not as much as a fricative, so the air flows without turbulence; and “click,” which is what it sounds like. So /p/ is a voiceless bilabial plosive because it is pronounced by making a burst of air by closing and then releasing the lips, without vibrating the vocal cords. (Compare /b/, which is a _voiced_ bilabial plosive, so is just like /p/ except you pronounce it with vocal cords vibrating; or /k/, which is a voiceless palatal plosive, so you pronounce it with the tongue against the hard palate. We don’t have bilabial fricatives in English, but you can compare it with /f/, which is a labiodental fricative.) Vowels have a completely different system, but the idea is the same. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/59 "2010-07-10T13:51:35Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > In certain circles, pronouncing “Iraq” as Eye-RACK will get you written off as an unsophisticated rube. But the same people who scoff at that have no compunction about rhyming “France” with “dance.” Anyone unironically using the pronunciation [fʁɑ̃s] in an English-language context risks being considered a pretentious twit. That’s because the English pronunciation of France is not frahn-sss, it’s fran-sss The English pronunciation of Iraq is not eye-rack, its ih-rahck or ih-rack Deliberately mispronouncing words in English due to an erroneous belief that the proper pronunciation is grounded in tree-hugging pretentiousness is what makes you (global you) the unsophisticated rube. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/60 "2010-07-10T14:02:24Z")
or, mispronouncing them because you are an idiot is what makes you the unsophisticated rube. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999.md?page=4)