# Foreign place names in English **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 8, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999 "2010-07-08T19:18:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/81 "2010-07-11T12:19:50Z")
> [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](#): > > And Ovide for Ovidius. Isn’t it “Ovid” in English as well? ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/82 "2010-07-11T12:32:15Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > America is “Mei Guo”, which translates back as “Beautiful Country” True enough, but I have always labored under the impression that America is “Mei Guo” 美国 not because the Chinese admire our beauty, but because it was a truncation of “Meilijian Hezhongguo” **美** 利坚合众 **国** , with “Meilijian” being a phonetic for “American” (similar to the way the USSR was referred to as “Su Lian” 苏联, a truncation of “Suweiai Shehuizhuyi Gongheguo Lianmeng” **苏** 维埃社会主义共和国 **联** 盟. I may be wrong, though) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/83 "2010-07-11T12:43:25Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > I would just like to say that while I was vaguely aware of the Thai/Siam thing, I never made the connection with “Siamese”. Wow.:eek: And not only do the people not call themselves Siamese, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Siamese cat here. I have been assured there are some, it’s just that they’re so expensive that their owners keep them indoors all the time. Well, I’d like believe that, but c’mon, not one single Siamese cat in all my years here?? Not even kittens for sale? ---
**Author:** ![QuercusMax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/8baadc/32.png) [@QuercusMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuercusMax)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/84 "2010-07-11T19:09:08Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Not always. There’s some small changes, like Cristoforo Colombo, although the most blatant change is Giovanni Caboto to John Cabot. According to Wikipedia, he himself signed his name as Zuan Chabotto, which is the Venetian version of his name. So Giovanni Caboto isn’t right either. And Christopher Columbus called himself Christoffa Corombo, the Genoese version of his name. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Piranha_Brothers)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/85 "2010-07-11T19:43:06Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Isn’t it “Ovid” in English as well? In English, yes, why? ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/86 "2010-07-11T19:56:05Z")
And then there’s the “al” problem when transliterating Arabic place names. In the 1973 _Oxford World Atlas_ “place names are given in the forms used in the countries concerned.” In Egypt, the largest city is identified as “Al Qahirah.” The old city to the north that had the library is “Al Iskandariyah.” In Asia Minor just north of the Syria/Turkey border is a town labeled “Iskandarum.” In the 1983 _Times Atlas of the World_ the largest city in Egypt is “Cairo,” that library city is “Alexandria,” but the third is still “Iskandarum,” but has “Alexandretta” in parenthesis beside it. So in one case we’ve dropped the “Al,” in the second we’ve included it, and in the third we’re not really sure, I guess. And I don’t know what effect that would have on the city in Northern Virginia, or what people really called that great son of Phillip of Macedon. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/87 "2010-07-11T20:02:14Z")
It occurs to me that when I said above that I thought “Eye-Rack” was probably the dominant form in the English-speaking world up until recently (which I have no hard evidence for, but still suspect), I was really only referring to the pronunciation of the second syllable as “Rack”. I have no particular opinion on whether the first syllable has traditionally been pronounced “eye” (/aI/) or with the starting vowel of “irrigate” (in my accent, /I/, but perhaps /i/ to some). ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/88 "2010-07-11T20:28:42Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > We don’t have bilabial fricatives in English… > [@CookingWithGas](#): > > George Carlin might not agree 😉 Funny as he may have been, he’s [wrong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilabial_fricative). When you puff out your lips and exhale in exasperation at finally realizing this, you’ll understand. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/89 "2010-07-11T20:46:26Z")
> [@Notassmartasithought](#): > > And then there’s the “al” problem when transliterating Arabic place names. > > In the 1973 _Oxford World Atlas_ “place names are given in the forms used in the countries concerned.” In Egypt, the largest city is identified as “Al Qahirah.” The old city to the north that had the library is “Al Iskandariyah.” In Asia Minor just north of the Syria/Turkey border is a town labeled “Iskandarum.” > > In the 1983 _Times Atlas of the World_ the largest city in Egypt is “Cairo,” that library city is “Alexandria,” but the third is still “Iskandarum,” but has “Alexandretta” in parenthesis beside it. > > So in one case we’ve dropped the “Al,” in the second we’ve included it, and in the third we’re not really sure, I guess. > > And I don’t know what effect that would have on the city in Northern Virginia, or what people really called that great son of Phillip of Macedon. “Alexandria” is simply the original Zgreek form of the name. It’s not “preserving” the Arabic article. You could make that case for Algeria. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/90 "2010-07-11T21:05:05Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > “Alexandria” is simply the original Zgreek form of the name. It’s not “preserving” the Arabic article. Named for the famous Macenonian: al Exander the Great! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/91 "2010-07-12T00:02:20Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > It occurs to me that when I said above that I thought “Eye-Rack” was probably the dominant form in the English-speaking world up until recently (which I have no hard evidence for, but still suspect), I was really only referring to the pronunciation of the second syllable as “Rack”. I have no particular opinion on whether the first syllable has traditionally been pronounced “eye” (/aI/) or with the starting vowel of “irrigate” (in my accent, /I/, but perhaps /i/ to some). I’ve heard many a native speaker, mostly midwesterners of my grandparents’ generation, pronounce “Eye-talian” without a hint of self-consciousness or irony. So I’d guess the same people would have said “eye-rack” and “eye-ran” had they ever discussed those places. And of course we all say “eye-rish,” not “ee-rish,” even though the native pronunciation of Éire (the “ire-” in Ireland) is more like English “ay” than “ee” or “eye.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/92 "2010-07-12T00:10:57Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’ve heard many a native speaker, mostly midwesterners of my grandparents’ generation, pronounce “Eye-talian” without a hint of self-consciousness or irony. Not to mention KO-rean. And be sure to draw out the first syllable: KOOO-rean. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/93 "2010-07-12T02:19:38Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’ve heard many a native speaker, mostly midwesterners of my grandparents’ generation, pronounce “Eye-talian” without a hint of self-consciousness or irony. So I’d guess the same people would have said “eye-rack” and “eye-ran” had they ever discussed those places. And of course we all say “eye-rish,” not “ee-rish,” even though the native pronunciation of Éire (the “ire-” in Ireland) is more like English “ay” than “ee” or “eye.” The last bit about how to pronounce “Éire” was actually a plot point in a Disney Channel movie about a kid who finds out he’s a leprechaun (it makes sense in context. Well, it makes sense in a Disney channel movie.). He ends up making the bad guy (head of a rival Leprechaun clan) promise to go back to the land of his (the main character’s) fathers, the shores of Erie. The bad guy agrees, the good guy wins in the end (with a freethrow competition, IIRC, it’s a Disney Channel movie after all). The bad guy goes on to criticize the kid’s inability to pronounce Éire correctly (assuming he just butchered the native pronunciation of Ireland.) Turned out the kid’s Irish on his _mother’s_ side. His dad was from Detroit. Cut to a shot of the evil leprechaun falling into one of the Great Lakes.😃 ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/94 "2010-07-12T04:06:00Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’ve heard many a native speaker, mostly midwesterners of my grandparents’ generation, pronounce “Eye-talian” without a hint of self-consciousness or irony. So I’d guess the same people would have said “eye-rack” and “eye-ran” had they ever discussed those places… Glad you brought this up. Aside from _why_ people say EYE-rack or EYE-ran, they sound uninformed and even hostile to the country involved. Is this your experience, too? Are the same people who use these pronunciations liable to say things like “Ah jes think if them EYE-rackies want us red-blooded Ah-MERR-kens to have death panels…” And, yes, I’m from the midwest, and have heard these EYE-names used, usually by older or more rural folk. And, yes, they were the same people who would offer me “ **EYE-talian** dressin”. ASIDE: One of those was the waitress at a local diner, who (poppin’ her gum and callin’ me darlin’, I kid you not) told me that the **Soup Doo Joor of the Day** was beef. Then explained, “which is ACK-chooly a lot like the **Oh Joo sauce**.” In the cities, and with more well-informed speakers, it’s eh-ROCK, eh-RON. And they sound like they’re thinking more globally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999.md?page=4)