# Forever 21 no longer having full-time non-management employees? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 16, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434 "2013-08-16T17:21:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/21 "2013-08-17T21:14:40Z")
Get used to it, this is gonna be more and more common. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/22 "2013-08-17T21:26:47Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > No, that’s to make them feel like a beloved part of the family. It started quite some time ago. One of the many tricks. In AT&T before the split-up they published the org chart upside down to out the customer on top - which led a guy in my group to note that the latest fired exec got promoted to customer. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/23 "2013-08-17T21:28:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And while every executive is doing all he can to pay his workers less, he’s also scratching his head trying to figure out why customers seem to have less money to spend. QFT. In the Times article about WalMart’s and retail in general disappointing earnings, they figured it must all be the tax increase - never mentioning how they screw their employees and set a ceiling on wages in general. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/24 "2013-08-17T21:39:07Z")
I don’t think it starts at the top though. Yes, top execs want everything they can get. But the buyers are squeezing down profit margins to nothing by demanding instant pricematching and so on. People get _pissed off_ when you tell them you can’t price match with [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com). The more people scrimp on pennies, the less slack they leave for marginal employees like minimum wage mall kids. And that lack of work experience is going to hurt today’s kids as they go forward in life, compounding badly. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/25 "2013-08-17T22:47:35Z")
I’ve seen companies doing this since the 80s when I first joined the job market. Back then, it was to prevent having to give people full-benefits packages. I worked one part-time job where they had attendance problems and was asked to work a lot of extra hours. At the beginning of September my first year, the boss called me in and said I was restricted to just my scheduled hours, as my average hours/week were closing in on full-time (over 35) for the year and they’d have to retro-actively give me full bennies if that happened. The hilarious thing was - I _knew_ it was a part-time job! I was helping them, but didn’t mind a bit getting to go home on time or take all my days off. A couple years later, they went whole hog and made everyone non-mgmt in the unit part-time. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/26 "2013-08-18T04:53:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think the fundamental problem is the disconnect between what executives want for their own company and what they want for the world. geez… Why blame the executives? Why not blame yourself? The problem is what **you** want from a company and what you want for the world. You want the lowest prices. (i.e. the brick-and-mortar store should somehow magically be able to match the price you saw on Amazon.) But you also want the company to pay good wages. Now do you see the disconnect? So do the executives. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/27 "2013-08-18T15:27:09Z")
This is nothing new. Target was that way when I worked there in the early 1980s. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/28 "2013-08-19T13:44:51Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > You want the lowest prices. (i.e. the brick-and-mortar store should somehow magically be able to match the price you saw on Amazon.) But isn’t that how capitalism _should_ work? Both consumer and producer act in their own self-interest. If someone else offers a cheaper/better product, your business goes under. You demote employees to cover the cost. Survival of the fittest and all that. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/29 "2013-08-19T13:50:35Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > But isn’t that how capitalism _should_ work? Both consumer and producer act in their own self-interest. If someone else offers a cheaper/better product, your business goes under. You demote employees to cover the cost. Survival of the fittest and all that. Should work, yes. But in the Electronic Age it’s all happening at the speed of light and we aren’t prepared for it as an economy. The theoretical ideal of pure capitalism will be offset by the starving masses of rioters seizing control. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/30 "2013-08-19T16:43:11Z")
I think we’ve missed something so far. There are about 11 bazillion clothing stores out there, and most of them sell pretty much the same stuff. If you go to your local mall, you can probably find at least a half-dozen stores exactly like Forever 21. Maybe Forever 21 was cool a few years ago, but if the the shine has faded, now they’re just another generic, interchangeable place to buy t-shirts and jeans. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/31 "2013-08-19T16:52:18Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > The more people scrimp on pennies, the less slack they leave for marginal employees like minimum wage mall kids. > And that lack of work experience is going to hurt today’s kids as they go forward in life, compounding badly. An even bigger problem is that the jobs that used to go to minimum wage mall kids are now being taken by adults with families who can’t get anything else. So the kids don’t have any job record at all. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/32 "2013-08-19T16:55:43Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > But isn’t that how capitalism _should_ work? Both consumer and producer act in their own self-interest. If someone else offers a cheaper/better product, your business goes under. You demote employees to cover the cost. Survival of the fittest and all that. Then everyone does it an no one in your low income target market has any money to buy your stuff, and you go under anyway. Ain’t life grand? The solution is for government to force higher wages and thus more money, so that the playing field is level, and not every company has to be as with it as Costco. Prices go up, sure, but low income people can afford them better and higher income people can also without feeling much pain. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/33 "2013-08-19T17:14:54Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Get used to it, this is gonna be more and more common. The retailer I work for is making pretty much the same move. Mainly it’s due to the ACA. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/34 "2013-08-19T17:46:35Z")
Except that it’s been happening nationally and across industries since long before the ACA. > [@](#): > > The solution is for government to force higher wages Disagree. I don’t know the solution, but that ain’t it. (imho) ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434/35 "2013-08-19T18:20:11Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Except that it’s been happening nationally and across industries since long before the ACA. Yeah, but that’s because smaller companies didn’t need to use this strategy to short employees on benefits. The ACA has made the practice spread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forever-21-no-longer-having-full-time-non-management-employees/666434.md?page=1)