# Forged Ballots Headed for Florida in 2000, and for Ohio in 2004? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2005, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542 "2005-12-14T05:02:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542/21 "2005-12-16T01:47:23Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > No, thank you. I have read quite enough on the matter. Unless, of course, you have a link to an un-biased cite (not a blog) that has hard evidence that votes were actually tampered with. You do realize that a lot of criminals are convicted on circumstantial evidence don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542/22 "2005-12-16T02:29:00Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > You do realize that a lot of criminals are convicted on circumstantial evidence don’t you? I guess we can take that as a ‘nope, no hard evidence here’, ehe? 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542/23 "2005-12-16T02:30:06Z")
(Personally I think the Mods should put this thread out of our misery) -XT ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542/24 "2005-12-16T02:58:12Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > (Personally I think the Mods should put this thread out of our misery) > > -XT Ah, the proverbial fear of the truth eh? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542/25 "2005-12-16T03:00:54Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > You do realize that a lot of criminals are convicted on circumstantial evidence don’t you? You don’t have evidence that a crime WAS committed, you have evidence that a crime COULD BE committed. While it is bad to have a bank that is not secure, that is not evidence that anyone robbed it, and you can’t make an arrest, no matter how easy it would be to steal money. You actually need to prove, first, that someone did take money. Get it? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542/26 "2005-12-16T03:30:23Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > Ah, the proverbial fear of the truth eh? Where was the truth in the OP? I must have missed it…I thought the OP made the whole post up by pasting in his/her own words. As for the ‘debate’…from my perspective its more like the ‘fear of tedium’ than the ‘fear of the truth’ as this has been done to death in this forum and to date there has never been presented a firm piece of evidence. Just rants and speculation. If you have some of this ‘truth’ by all means serve it up. Otherwise I’ll continue to hope the Mods rightfully shoot this OP in the head and give it a quick burial. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542/27 "2005-12-16T05:05:37Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > Ah, the proverbial fear of the truth eh? Dude, you’re not helping. I really, really want folks to take the Democratic party seriously, and I spend a fair amount of time on these boards advocating progressive political positions and discussing how we can bring about a more progressive political situation in our country. When someone comes along and defends absolute nonsense like this, it’s ammunition that will be used against me. Makes me craze. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542/28 "2005-12-16T05:21:19Z")
I’m a left leaning democrat. But if you think mainstream democrats are progressive. You need to read the news more. ---
**Author:** ![Henry-Finland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Henry-Finland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry-Finland)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542/29 "2005-12-16T06:31:53Z")
**First:** I am a guest (until the PayPal-system will take effect). As a guest, I can’t use the “Search”-option. Thus I can’t know what you have discussed and what are your conclusions. **Second:** I do not care if there is commies, reps, dems or libertians, that have had the chance to use the voting system wrongly. It is the princip. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You don’t have evidence that a crime WAS committed, you have evidence that a crime COULD BE committed. **Right you are!!!** > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > While it is bad to have a bank that is not secure, that is not evidence that anyone robbed it, and you can’t make an arrest, no matter how easy it would be to steal money. You actually need to prove, first, that someone did take money. Get it? Why should it be proven that your constitutional rights are taken away from you? **Should you not react, as any patriot in a democracy, on the fact that your constitutional right can be/is in danger?** * * * **It seem to me that _nobody_ cares about about the constitution** after it has been written by the founding fathers. The discussion is about what they wrote, but to defend their efforts, that seem to be someone elses duty. And if (s)he does, it is assumed that (s)he is from an opposition party. It could be that an evil democrat or \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ (fill here who ever), has forged the result, that is proven to be possible, even if the dems still lost. And the opportunity that hundreds of people could have done this, is not worrying you? The right to have the peoples voice heard, heard without a possibility to “distortion”, is not worth to defend? In Europe we have a very long and tragical history about what will happen when people ‘forgets’ to defend the democratic constitutions and institutions. I think we have finally learned something, some of us, and we hope that you do not have to take the ‘hard road’ to learn the same. So, tell me, is this a pricipal question for you personally or not? Henry ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542/30 "2005-12-16T10:56:07Z")
Henry, to me it’s the difference between saying that our voting machines are improperly designed and saying that Bush stole two elections via voter fraud. You’ll get no argument from me when you say our voting method should be secure. You’ll get no end of argument when you claim fraud with no evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Henry-Finland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Henry-Finland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry-Finland)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542/31 "2005-12-16T12:37:25Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Henry, to me it’s the difference between saying that our voting machines are improperly designed and saying that Bush stole two elections via voter fraud. You’ll get no argument from me when you say our voting method should be secure. You’ll get no end of argument when you claim fraud with no evidence. Where do I claim fraud without any evidence? What have I said that you need proof of? - I say your voting mashines are insecure. And that I can prove. - I do not say that there is any other fraud than that Diebold lied about the security of the voting machines. - I do not see or has claimed that there is a voting fraud. - But it has been possible for hundreds of people to perform a fraud without been caught. Henry ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542/32 "2005-12-16T13:26:30Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > I’m a left leaning democrat. But if you think mainstream democrats are progressive. > > You need to read the news more. I did not say that, and I do not think that. I am not a Democrat: I find the entire party is too far to the right for my tastes, and if it were up to me, we’d have a Green government. I’ve seriously considered moving to Denmark or Norway just for the government. (Well, okay, and for the totally hot people). However, I know that ain’t happening here any time soon. So I “want people to take the Democrats seriously”: I want them to win elections, which will move the country at least somewhat in the direction I want to see it go. Meanwhile, I “advocate progressive political positions.” Two separate activities. Both of them are helped when Democrats are rational, eloquent, and substantial, putting for specific progressive proposals that look to the future of the country instead of rehashing old wrongs. Were Democrats robbed in 2000? Absolutely: it was atrocious, a stain on our country. Is talking about it today, weaving it in with conspiracy theories about Diebold, at all helpful? Absolutely not. Focus on real issues, bread-and-butter issues, blood issues, and you Democrats may have a chance of gaining power again. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542/33 "2005-12-16T15:15:23Z")
Diebold is in for a healthy heaping of trouble. [http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Diebold\_CEO\_resigns\_after\_reports\_of\_1212.html](http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Diebold_CEO_resigns_after_reports_of_1212.html) [http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,64874,00.html?tw=wn\_story\_related](http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,64874,00.html?tw=wn_story_related) Insider trading issues, mishandled elections in Georgia and Ohio, threatening states instead of complying with laws… [http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Diebold\_insider\_\_alleges\_company\_plagued\_1206.html](http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Diebold_insider__alleges_company_plagued_1206.html) There. From inside. Admittedly, it’s on the internet, and not in paper, but this gentleman does appear to be who he says. [http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/15595.html?1134523376](http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/15595.html?1134523376) Diebold machines messing up. Should be Yes: 2, No: 6. Wound up being Yes: 7, No: 1. Think if a machine can mess up that way, it should be recording your votes? ---
**Author:** ![Henry-Finland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Henry-Finland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry-Finland)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542/34 "2005-12-16T16:10:51Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > \ > Were Democrats robbed in 2000? Absolutely: it was atrocious, a stain on our country. Is talking about it today, weaving it in with conspiracy theories about Diebold, at all helpful? Absolutely not. Focus on real issues, bread-and-butter issues, blood issues, and you Democrats may have a chance of gaining power again. > > Daniel Yes, Daniel, but how will _ **anyone** _ be sure about the next election, if the changes are not made? * * * Now here is a step by step, with photographs, instruction about; **How granny can be made president in the next elections with Diebold voting machines and criminal minds!!!:** **Within one minute!** > **[BBVreport.pdf](https://www.blackboxvoting.org/BBVreport.pdf)** > > 1118.12 KB Remember that the forged results can’t be checked later. The checking process confirms the forged result. Is that not a beauty! If you read through this pdf, I am quite sure that you come to the same conclusion that I came: \*\*\*Everyone who does not see the correction of this voting system, as a very important issue, is very unpatriotic and does not care about the heritage of the western democracies. \*\*\* Henry [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forged-ballots-headed-for-florida-in-2000-and-for-ohio-in-2004/335542.md?page=1)