# Forget Syria, Venezuela's closer! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2003, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-syria-venezuelas-closer/205082 "2003-10-02T07:52:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-syria-venezuelas-closer/205082/41 "2003-10-03T02:29:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bayonet1976 \* > As to the redistribution of wealth in Venezuela, this is simply not true. Venezuela’s economy has been pretty much in free fall for a number of years, so it can be argued that the only redistribution of wealth taking place is moving all wealth out of the country. Do you have a cite for this? According to an interview with the head of huge oil company (on NYSE), during pre-Chavez times about 80%-90% of the oil revenue was redistributed to investors and the rich. After Chavez took power, the oil revenue went into the national budget, funding public services. This is also along the lines with what I’ve read about this country lately. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-syria-venezuelas-closer/205082/42 "2003-10-03T07:12:47Z")
Did you guys think that democracy works perfectly everytime ? Chavez and Bush are examples that it doesnt. Next election the venezuelans will think that much more about who they vote for… so their democracy has in a sense “developed”. Society has become more politically aware. If the US sponsors another coup… do you think your helping Venezuelan democracy ? Shitty way to learn for sure. After the last coup it was shameful how fast the USA recognized the “new” government. So much for defending democracy. ``` I agree Chavez is garbage... elected garbage. Rhetoric and class fighting is what still keeps him in office. Still compared to US educational levels Venezuela's lower classes hardly can understand their plight... US voters in theory should be smarter as relates to not re-electing Bush... should. ``` ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-syria-venezuelas-closer/205082/43 "2003-10-03T12:03:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alien \* > \*\*And a second question to **bayonet1976** : Wasn’t the new Constitution approved by the people democratically in a referendum? As far as I know, the new Constitution guarantees protection and equal rights for everybody, and it’s nothing like Cuban’s at all. Care to elaborate, with cites? \*\* You’re absolutely right, something like 70% of the voters approved the new constitution. Which is why I said before that I’m not arguing with the right of Venezuelans to elect and keep idiots in office. They’ve made their bargain with the devil. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-syria-venezuelas-closer/205082/44 "2003-10-03T12:20:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alien \* > \*\*Do you have a cite for this? According to an interview with the head of huge oil company (on NYSE), during pre-Chavez times about 80%-90% of the oil revenue was redistributed to investors and the rich. After Chavez took power, the oil revenue went into the national budget, funding public services. This is also along the lines with what I’ve read about this country lately. \*\* Here are some stats, from [this link](http://www.economist.com/countries/Venezuela/profile.cfm?folder=Profile%2DEconomic%20Data) . Note that all these numbers are from Chavez’s years in power. Right now GDP is lower than it was a year after Chavez took power. For more detailed historical numbers go to [the CIA fact book](http://library.louisville.edu/government/goodsources/factbook.html) . ``` 1999 2000 2001 2002 ``` GDP per head ($ at PPP) 5,755 5,948 6,160 5,590 GDP (% real change pa) -6.09 3.24 2.79 -8.89 Government consumption (% of GDP) 7.51 7.23 8.59 8.40 Budget balance (% of GDP) -1.60 -1.65 -4.41 -3.70 Consumer prices (% change pa; av) 23.57 16.21 12.53 22.43 Public debt (% of GDP) 29.32 27.01 30.41 39.99 Recorded unemployment (%) 14.90 13.90 13.30 15.20 ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-syria-venezuelas-closer/205082/45 "2003-10-03T12:56:17Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by bayonet1976_ > \*\*Here are some stats, from [this link](http://www.economist.com/countries/Venezuela/profile.cfm?folder=Profile%2DEconomic%20Data) . Note that all these numbers are from Chavez’s years in power. Right now GDP is lower than it was a year after Chavez took power. For more detailed historical numbers go to [the CIA fact book](http://library.louisville.edu/government/goodsources/factbook.html) . Thanks \*\*bayonet1976 \*\*, but your data is not about what I asked. I was wondering how much of the oil revenue now goes into the national budget and to public services as opposed to be before. As I said, previously the oil revenue went to the rich, but I have read that today this money goes into the budget and to education, health care, etc. I know Chavez replaced members on the oil company’s board, and as a result there was strikes that shut down most of the oil production for a while in 2002, meaning the GDP would fall that year, just as your data suggest. But where does the oil revenue go today? ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-syria-venezuelas-closer/205082/46 "2003-10-03T13:34:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alien \* > \*\*I know Chavez replaced members on the oil company’s board, and as a result there was strikes that shut down most of the oil production for a while in 2002, meaning the GDP would fall that year, just as your data suggest. But where does the oil revenue go today? \*\* Same place they’ve always gone, some to private investors and the bulk to the government. Venezuela’s oil industry was nationalized in the mid 1970’s, although some privatization took place in the 1990’s the bulk of the oil industry is still owned by the government. As to the decline in Venezuela’s GDP in 2002, it was in part due to the strike, but the strike itself was started when Chavez was forced to devalue the Bolivar, in part due to a weakening economy. The data I posted before did not include pre-Chavez numbers but 1997 GDP was $8,300 ( [from this link](http://www.greekorthodoxchurch.org/wfb1998/venezuela/venezuela_economy.html) ), compare that to the $5,755 amount in 1999. As a scapegoat Chavez pointed to the management of PdVSA, and replaced them with his own appointees, that in turn led to the strike, which made the economy even worse. Keep in mind that PdVSA is Venezuela’s largest employer, with something like 30% of the total employment. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-syria-venezuelas-closer/205082/47 "2003-10-03T13:49:45Z")
Is there any evidence that the anti-Chavez coup was US initiated (rather then just clumsily after the fact US approved)? I don’t know that the neo-cons have any axes to grind in Latin America as they do with the Middle East. Plus, Venezuela is such a basket case already that I doubt that even the best propoganda could make invasion/occupation look attractive. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-syria-venezuelas-closer/205082/48 "2003-10-03T19:38:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MMI \* > I don’t know that the neo-cons have any axes to grind in Latin America as they do with the Middle East. Securing foreign sources of oil to enforce American strength would be in line with their agenda, I imagine. Short of a major conservation/fuel efficiency campaign, this nation is in dire need of long-term oil supplies, regardless of the political affiliation of whoever’s in charge. > [@](#): > > Plus, Venezuela is such a basket case already that I doubt that even the best propoganda could make invasion/occupation look attractive. Oh, just have the speechwriters churn out some gibberish about “courage” and “patriotism” and “emminent threat,” and there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-syria-venezuelas-closer/205082/49 "2003-10-03T20:55:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Una Persson \* > \*\*Out of curiosity, how many people in this thread have ever actually spent time in Venezuela in the last 2 or 3 years? No need to answer if the answer is “no”. \*\* Well, I’ll answer anyway. I spent some time in Venezuela maybe fifteen years ago, and judging from your description I can see that little has changed. I’ll say this, too. Any damned fool who is gunning for a war in Venezuela obviously _hasn’t_ been there. Imagine dropping Vietnam’s jungle on top of Afghanistan and you’ll have some idea of the terrain. Then put a couple million impoverished people in a single alpine valley with residential housing built to no discernable building code, put some warlike tribes out in the forests, and toss in the descendants of some angry ex-Nazis here and there. Venezuela is not a nice place. It’s a beautiful place, and the people are wonderful, but it’s not nice. However, if I did want to start a war, there’s nothing better to do it with than a little bit of propagandistic imagery. [Look what the Venezuelans have that we don’t](http://www.la-embajada.com.ar/images/caracas.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-syria-venezuelas-closer/205082/50 "2003-10-06T13:51:35Z")
actually the next target is not venezuela but antartica! [http://www.ucomics.com/tomthedancingbug/2003/09/20/](http://www.ucomics.com/tomthedancingbug/2003/09/20/) ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-syria-venezuelas-closer/205082/51 "2003-10-06T17:46:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > **Chavez is a stereotypical 3rd-world Marxist shitbag.** Perhaps you might comment on **Roland Saul’s** excellent post, which actually contained facts concerning Chavez (you what that is), instead of insults? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-syria-venezuelas-closer/205082.md?page=2)