# Forget the Republicans. How do the Democrats change internally from here? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512 "2010-11-04T21:37:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/101 "2010-11-09T07:13:14Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Look, persecution complexes aside, think for a moment. When Der Trihs represents your views, and in many cases people like him are the public face of the Democrat party, there’s a public relations issue. That’s a problem you guys wanna work on. I think that it is odd that you would consider a poster who calls the Democrats weak and gutless and claims that their actions, for years, have been “sucking up” to the Republican Party is, in some odd manner, representative of the Democratic Party. Der Trihs hates everyone, but happens to have a special distaste for for Right wing views. Using that to place him among the Democrats, or even the Left, indicates a simplistic us-vs-them way of looking at the world that does not reflect any reality and pretending that he is a “public face” of the Democratic Party is just ludicrous. It might, however, support one of his contentions regarding the way that some, (he would say all), on the political Right behave. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/102 "2010-11-09T14:30:16Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > If the guys they’re willing to elect won’t support the liberal democrat agenda, then you can’t really say they ever really supported the dems. They just voted for gophers with D’s after their names. There’s just no evidence of any real commitment to democratic principles from the folks who dumped their crummy blue dogs for even crummier tea party republicans. > -by gophers, I mean gop-pers This computing device is a pain to edit on. No, oddly enough, you got it right the first time. The whole Blue Dog Caucus were genetically engineered from gophers. It’s a long fnord and complicated story. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/103 "2010-11-09T14:49:43Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > The “vast middle” is made up of roughly equal portions of Democrats and GOPers, along with a lot of independents. But those are only the _party affiliations_ of this “vast middle”. If you examine the _political ideologies_ of this population they run on a continuum of: Centrist/Moderate ----\> Strong Right-Wing (going from Left to Right). > > I would say the Hard Left is about 1-3% of the Democratic Party, with the Strong Left consisting about 10%, and the Moderately-Left another 10-15%. The majority of the party is basically Left-Leaning to Centrist/Moderate. > > In the GOP, the Hard Right makes up about 30 - 40% (importantly, this group is only _partly_ “Tea-Partiers”–there are other components of the Hard Right), with the Strong Right numbering another 30 - 40%, and the small group leftover consisting of Moderately-Right to Right-Leaning. > > I know it’s tempting to try to see the GOP and the Democrats as having an equal number of extremists, but this simply isn’t the case because the Democrats are a Moderate party, while the GOP is a Right-Wing party. The only Left-Wing parties in the USA are insignificant, powerless “third parties” who are largely ignored. It is those tiny parties that contain the vast majority of the Hard Left, along with the tiny overall number of Extreme-Left voters. > > While there are also some small, insignificant Hard-Right parties, the GOP does a very good job of appealing to the majority of the Hard and Extreme-Right. So unless one is actively giving straight-arm salutes and living underground in a forest with only 1000 cans of pork n’ beans and 27 rifles for company, there is no need to flee the friendly GOP. If the numbers above accurately portray American voters, then we would do well to listen to them, no? If the majority of voters are Centrist to Right, then why bother pushing or trying to push towards the Left? That baffles me. For you to be right with the percentages, the Democratic “Left” should be all but dead. Why do they creep to the forefront pushing liberal ideology that is going to get dismissed out of hand by the more Centrist/Right populace? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/104 "2010-11-09T15:46:09Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > If the majority of voters are Centrist to Right, then why bother pushing or trying to push towards the Left? That baffles me. > For you to be right with the percentages, the Democratic “Left” should be all but dead. Why do they creep to the forefront pushing liberal ideology that is going to get dismissed out of hand by the more Centrist/Right populace? Well, look, if you’re involved in politics for the sake of a liberal or progressive or leftist **agenda** – and many are, at least at the rank-and-file level – no electoral strategy is meaningful unless it serves the end of enacting such, right? Something equivalent to the neoliberal Clinton Administration would defeat the purpose entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/105 "2010-11-09T15:49:41Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > If the majority of voters are Centrist to Right, then why bother pushing or trying to push towards the Left? Because some people have actual political convictions. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/106 "2010-11-09T15:53:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because some people have actual political convictions. That do not hold with the principles of even those who voted for them… Nice DT ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/107 "2010-11-09T15:56:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, look, if you’re involved in politics for the sake of a liberal or progressive or leftist **agenda** – and many are, at least at the rank-and-file level – no electoral strategy is meaningful unless it serves the end of enacting such, right? Something equivalent to the neoliberal Clinton Administration would defeat the purpose entirely. I can understand the need for ‘polticking’ for politics sake but geez louise how much money goes into growing government when the far more massive populace wants less government intrusion? If such things that require polticking for the sake of politics get passed to the detriment of the general public, why are they even sought. It seems like they willingly and condescendingly are passing things they KNOW the public doesn’t want. Big Brother here: We KNOW what’s best for you. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/108 "2010-11-09T16:00:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because some people have actual political convictions. Well that, and the fact that the numbers themselves are a bit of a team-spirit building project for the right. Whether there’s a lot of them or not, it _feels good_ to say “I’m a conservative, and my views represent those of the majority of Americans” Of course, the rank and file just dispense with the ‘of the majority’ bit and claim: “I’m a conservative, and my views represent those of Americans.” Saying that _feels_ even better, but leaves us lefties feeling slighted. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/109 "2010-11-09T16:01:21Z")
When FDR massively increased federal hiring, it caused people to vote for him. He gave them jobs. If the government is creating jobs through public works & the civil service, the populace doesn’t object to government expansion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/110 "2010-11-09T16:37:44Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > I can understand the need for ‘polticking’ for politics sake . . . :rolleyes: No, sir. Read for comprehension. What I was describing is politicking for **policy’s** sake. E.g., if you get involved in politics for the sake of, say, outlawing abortion, and everybody you backed gets elected but abortion still remains legal, then you have wasted your time and you need to rethink your approach. Continuing, instead, to do the same as before, **that** would be politicking for politics’ sake. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/111 "2010-11-09T17:52:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: No, sir. Read for comprehension. What I was describing is politicking for **policy’s** sake. > > E.g., if you get involved in politics for the sake of, say, outlawing abortion, and everybody you backed gets elected but abortion still remains legal, then you have wasted your time and you need to rethink your approach. Continuing, instead, to do the same as before, **that** would be politicking for politics’ sake. I gotcha. This is what I was afraid of. The government’s ability to pull out of society what they themselves don’t want. Politics for society’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/112 "2010-11-09T17:55:24Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > I gotcha. This is what I was afraid of. The government’s ability to pull out of society what they themselves don’t want. Politics for society’s sake. Shouldn’t all politics be for society’s sake? Isn’t that the standard by which we judge whether a politician or political movement is honest/admirable or not? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/113 "2010-11-09T17:56:45Z")
I’ve started [my own thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=584933) on how the Dems need to change internally if they want to win. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/114 "2010-11-09T17:58:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Shouldn’t all politics be for society’s sake? Isn’t that the standard by which we judge whether a politician or political movement is honest/admirable or not? Well, IMO, policy should be dictated ‘by the people’ not some agenda that a politician has or wants pushed through. If they have to lie, cheat and steal to get elected so that they can go about enforcing their own or a party agenda then they shouldn’t be in office. To me, that isn’t admirable at all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/115 "2010-11-09T18:07:08Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Well, IMO, policy should be dictated ‘by the people’ not some agenda that a politician has or wants pushed through. If they have to lie, cheat and steal to get elected so that they can go about enforcing their own or a party agenda then they shouldn’t be in office. > > To me, that isn’t admirable at all. :dubious: In a representative republic, an elected official’s job is **not** to do the will of the people based on the latest public-opinion poll, it is to do what the **official** thinks is best for society. That comes under the broad heading of “specialization of labor” – we elect officials to deal with and think about these things for us. Every modern republic **needs** a specialized class of experienced career politicians, don’t believe any “citizen legislator” bullshit to the contrary. The people get to make their will known bindingly in the elections, when they choose leaders based on the candidates’ general politics (and character), and in referenda where allowed (based on California’s experience, not such a good idea). ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/116 "2010-11-09T18:10:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: In a representative republic, an elected official’s job is **not** to do the will of the people based on the latest public-opinion poll, it is to do what the **official** thinks is best for society. The people get to make their will known bindingly in the elections, when they choose leaders, and in referenda where allowed (based on California’s experience, not such a good idea). You forget what prompted this conversation. Here: “If the numbers above accurately portray American voters, then we would do well to listen to them, no? If the majority of voters are Centrist to Right, then why bother pushing or trying to push towards the Left? That baffles me. For you to be right with the percentages, the Democratic “Left” should be all but dead. Why do they creep to the forefront pushing liberal ideology that is going to get dismissed out of hand by the more Centrist/Right populace?” IF all the above is true, then you are self serving by claiming that the democratically elected official is doing in the best interest of the general public by promoting ‘left of center’ policies. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/117 "2010-11-09T23:42:52Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > You forget what prompted this conversation. > > Here: “If the numbers above accurately portray American voters, then we would do well to listen to them, no? > If the majority of voters are Centrist to Right, then why bother pushing or trying to push towards the Left? That baffles me. > For you to be right with the percentages, the Democratic “Left” should be all but dead. Why do they creep to the forefront pushing liberal ideology that is going to get dismissed out of hand by the more Centrist/Right populace?” > > IF all the above is true, then you are self serving by claiming that the democratically elected official is doing in the best interest of the general public by promoting ‘left of center’ policies. You are claiming that the Democrats tried to push some liberal agenda, which is wrong. And no, passing a rip-off of an old Republican "heath care “reform” isn’t liberal. The Democrats in office have been consistently acting more to the Right than the people who voted for them. You are also ignoring the fact that part of the point of having a representative government instead of direct democracy is to have people in charge who have better information than random citizens of what needs to be done to accomplish national goals. If a “liberal agenda” will get the people what they say they want better than a more right wing agenda, then generally that’s what the politicians should go for. The people are much more qualified to specify goals than they are to specify methods; the latter involves far more of the sort of nitty-gritty details that trip up non-specialists.. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/118 "2010-11-12T14:58:13Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Think again. > Did you notice how heavily the electoral axe fell upon democrats who were weak on healthcare reform? The Blue dogs were not just decimated, they were _halved_! > **No one** wants a representive who claim he’s a Democrat, yet votes like a Republican. I don’t think those democrats would have done much better if they had been strong advocates for the health care bill. Look, it’s a cyclical thing. The party (be it Democratic or Republican) does well, and they pick up seats that are normally hostile to them, which leads to more ideological diversity in the caucus. Election goes bad, the recently won seats are the most vulnerable, leads to a caucus that’s more lockstep. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/119 "2010-11-12T15:43:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t think those democrats would have done much better if they had been strong advocates for the health care bill. Look, it’s a cyclical thing. The party (be it Democratic or Republican) does well, and they pick up seats that are normally hostile to them, which leads to more ideological diversity in the caucus. Election goes bad, the recently won seats are the most vulnerable, leads to a caucus that’s more lockstep. Hey that is the Democrats line! 🙂 According to NPR several Democrats also paraphrased what you just said here after the election. Of course that then leads to another point that they mentioned: Republicans are already making the mistake in assuming that they got a mandate to dismantle the reforms of the previous congress, in reality the people are angry because the economy soured, the party in power got the blame and they expect the Republicans to help in issues like jobs. I think that many who voted Republican will be soon be disappointed on the issues that the House will focus early on. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512/120 "2010-11-12T16:14:23Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t think those democrats would have done much better if they had been strong advocates for the health care bill. Look, it’s a cyclical thing. Sure, but claiming that the losses are the result of repudiation of the Democrats by ‘Americans’ is sheer bullshit. In the first place, the people of Inner Podunkistan are not in any way realer ‘Americans’ than the bicoastal sin-mongers. In the second place the Dems lost in those areas because those areas have been weak for Democrats for decades. Sure the party picked up some seats there when GW’s failures became too glaring, but if even conservadems aren’t Republican enough to retain those positions, it’s better to write them off as a temporarily lost cause than piss off the Liberal core by pandering to red states. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forget-the-republicans-how-do-the-democrats-change-internally-from-here/559512.md?page=5)