# Forgiveness. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956 "2015-09-20T15:43:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Brodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Brodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brodi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/1 "2015-09-20T15:43:30Z")
Last June I traveled to Poland with a famous holocaust survivor named [Eva Kor](http://www.candlesholocaustmuseum.org/about/eva-kor.htm). She and her late sister survived Dr. Josef Mengele’s experiments and founded a museum in Terre Haute, Indiana in the late '90s. She travels around the country giving speeches at varouious schools and universities about “forgiveness”. > [@](#): > > Forgiveness is a way of healing oneself from pain, trauma, and/or tragedy. It is a means of self-liberation and self-empowerment. > > ``` > Forgiving is not forgetting. It is in many cases impossible to forget events that deeply affect us. They shape our lives for better or worse. In the case of the Holocaust, it is important to remember and educate so it cannot happen again. > > Forgiving does not mean that we condone the evil deeds of the Nazis and/or other perpetrators, nor does it mean we wish them to be granted amnesty or political asylum. The question of justice is separate from the issue of forgiveness. > > This concept of forgiveness has little or nothing to do with the perpetrators. It has everything to do with the need of victims to be free from the pain inflicted upon them. > > This concept of forgiveness has nothing to do with any religion. All people yearn to live free of the pain and burden of the past. If it is confined to one religion, or any religion, then some people will not be able to access it. > > Each person can forgive only in his or her own name. One cannot forgive in the name of all Holocaust survivors, nor can one forgive someone for something he or she did to someone else. One can only forgive for what was done to him or her. It is a personal act. > > Forgiveness is not a way to counteract violence, to provide safety in the midst of violence or to advocate non-violence necessarily. When we feel our lives are in danger, most people will do everything they can to maintain their lives. Forgiveness is something to consider after the trauma has occurred. > > Forgiveness is more than “letting go.” It is proactive rather than passive. We become victims involuntarily, when a person or entity with power takes away our power to use our mind and body in the way we choose. Something was done to us that put us in a position of feeling powerless. Thus the conscious choice to forgive provides healing, liberation, and reclamation of this power. > > ``` > > “Anger is a seed for war. Forgiveness is a seed for peace.” > > Eva Kor, Auschwitz survivor She has forgiven several nazis (Hans Munch, Josef Mengele, Oskar Gröning) and has “adopted” the grandsons of Verschuer (Mengele’s professor) and Rudolf Hoess, the camps commandant. Here’s a link about her adoption of Rainer Hoess. [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2909546/The-Holocaust-twin-tortured-Mengele-escape-Auschwitz-ADOPTED-grandson-Nazi-commandant-Rudolf-Hoess.html](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2909546/The-Holocaust-twin-tortured-Mengele-escape-Auschwitz-ADOPTED-grandson-Nazi-commandant-Rudolf-Hoess.html) So, if you had survived a genocide (Holocaust, Rwanda, Syria, ect) could you forgive the perpetrators? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/2 "2015-09-20T16:02:39Z")
Hate to fight the hypothetical, but it’s so far outside the realm of experience that I don’t see how anyone could answer that question. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/3 "2015-09-20T16:26:45Z")
I can’t quite figure out what she’s saying, there; if I “forgive” you while hastening to add that what you’ve done obviously can’t be condoned, such that you should of course be prosecuted – well, then, what am I doing differently? How can you even _tell_ whether I’m forgiving you? Is it that I act exactly the same, but cheerfully _say_ you’re forgiven? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/4 "2015-09-20T16:41:15Z")
I don’t think letting go of resentments is the same thing as forgiving. letting go of resentments is a healthy and neccesary ingredient to emotional health. I see no reason to forgive anyone who has not repented and asked for forgiveness. I see a lot of good reasons to let go of resentments. If the perpetrators we somehow victims themselves of somekind of powerful mind controlling phenomena it might be slightly easier to let go of resentments directed at them. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/5 "2015-09-20T17:17:48Z")
Is forgiveness simply not feeling anger anymore? In that case, yes, I think I could forgive, inasmuch as I can become emotionally detached from the past. But I can’t see this as being an intentional act. I can say “I forgive you!”, which in turn may help me to feel better about what has been done to me. But I don’t think I can will myself to let go of anger. I either feel it or I don’t. I don’t believe in “shoulding” feelings. I might be in the minority, but I think forgiveness isn’t the saintly thing that people think it is. I also think it is damaging when it becomes the social expectation for someone to forgive. Like, if the woman in the OP admitted to still feeling quite angry and bitter towards the Nazis, I wouldn’t fault her one bit. But then she wouldn’t be viewed as an inspiration and wouldn’t be invited to speak. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/6 "2015-09-20T19:16:28Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I can’t quite figure out what she’s saying, there; if I “forgive” you while hastening to add that what you’ve done obviously can’t be condoned, such that you should of course be prosecuted – well, then, what am I doing differently? How can you even _tell_ whether I’m forgiving you? Is it that I act exactly the same, but cheerfully _say_ you’re forgiven? I would think it’s obvious that forgiveness is an internal thing, like gratitude or concern. The particular outward signs that other persons could observe, after one person forgives, would vary, but lack of vindictive behavior would seem to be a likely starting point. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/7 "2015-09-20T19:57:47Z")
Some people can, and some people can’t. Some want it, and some don’t. And I agree with **monstro** that it’s wrong for it to become an expectation, because that can lead people to internal conflict. They would judge themselves as less than perfect, for clinging to their rage. Forgiveness might seem to them too much like forgetting: “If I forgive the Nazis, that’s a betrayal of the memory of my Aunt Lucy, whom they dragged away screaming.” How am I supposed to forgive someone who dragged away my Aunt in screaming terror? I, personally, couldn’t do it, and wouldn’t strive for it as an ideal. For calmness, for emotional centering and moderation, for relief from rages and furies, yes, that I would strive for. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/8 "2015-09-20T20:42:32Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I would think it’s obvious that forgiveness is an internal thing, like gratitude or concern. The particular outward signs that other persons could observe, after one person forgives, would vary, but lack of vindictive behavior would seem to be a likely starting point. But – as per the OP – your outward behavior can of course include _insisting on just punishment for the person who did something you still refuse to condone_, which is, y’know, exactly what I was going to do anyway, because of course it was. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/9 "2015-09-20T22:29:18Z")
Favoring just punishment is not the same was wanting revenge. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/10 "2015-09-20T22:36:05Z")
> [@Brodi](#): > > So, if you had survived a genocide (Holocaust, Rwanda, Syria, ect) could you forgive the perpetrators? I would never speak on behalf of people who survived such situations – I am not sure it is ethical to speak on what we would do in their place. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/11 "2015-09-20T23:42:20Z")
> [@Brodi](#): > > So, if you had survived a genocide (Holocaust, Rwanda, Syria, ect) could you forgive the perpetrators? In service of what? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/12 "2015-09-21T00:14:10Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I would never speak on behalf of people who survived such situations – I am not sure it is ethical to speak on what we would do in their place. Why might it not be ethical to speculate what we might do? I agree it’s of dubious ethics to judge someone else for what they did in a circumstance like that, but I think it’s fair, at very least, to engage in the thought-experiment. I agree we cannot know what we would do in extreme circumstances. Would you go down with the Titanic, or grab a seat in a lifeboat, even if others were also waiting for a seat? We all would like to believe we’d do the “right thing,” but we can’t know until it actually happens. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/13 "2015-09-21T00:17:50Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Would you go down with the Titanic, or grab a seat in a lifeboat, even if others were also waiting for a seat? We all would like to believe we’d do the “right thing,” but we can’t know until it actually happens. I do not know. CCitizen under extreme stress may be 100% different from normal CCitizen. Would I run for my life? Would I panic? ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/14 "2015-09-21T19:14:16Z")
While, clearly, surviving the Holocaust goes far beyond any wrongs I’ve faced in my life, I do agree with the point of view expressed, forgiveness isn’t about forgetting or revenge or punishment. It is a means to healing. Moreover, the greater the wrong, often the more difficult it is to forgive. But I also think that society, as a whole, has a misunderstanding of what forgiveness is and what it means. We tend to think that forgiveness and apology are dependent upon eachother–they aren’t–or that forgiving means just letting it go and moving on–it doesn’t. Consider someone wrongs you, whether intentional or accidental, while it is but a single action, it exists as two parts, the action and the reaction. That is, being wronged upon the victim, and being the inflictor. This creates a burden for both people, notable here, is the need for healing on the victim. Often we expect that apologizing is required for someone to be forgiven, but that isn’t the case. At an emotional level, one simply cannot heal until one has forgiven the person who harmed them, lest it be like being shot and leaving the cutting weapon in the wound. The wound may stop bleeding and even get smaller over time, but it cannot fully heal while it is in there. But that’s the whole point, if I’m wronged, I don’t need the person who harmed me to pull it out, I can do that, and then I can heal. But that doesn’t necessarily leave me back as I was before I was hurt. Nor does forgiveness, on it’s own, undo that, it simply let’s me heal. That’s where the apologizing exists. The person who caused the harm has a moral obligation to take responsibility and do what is reasonably within his power to provide appropriate restitution and atonement. To continue the stabbing example, maybe that means paying for medical bills and accepting punishment of our society, but still, fundamentally, healing absolutely can done without that. Certainly, if both work together, the healing is often faster and closer to the original state but it can be done without the inflictor being involved at all. Considering some people who have wronged me in my life, I can think of some who have betrayed me. I don’t have any animosity or anger toward them, in fact, I honestly hope they learn from what they did and have good lives. I just don’t want them around me anymore, because they’re not people I can trust. Similarly, it would be nice if they would make an effort to repay some of the damage they’ve done, and for those who have done illegal things, my forgiveness of them does not absolve them of that either. That all said, I’d like to believe that I’d have the moral fortitude to forgive in such an extreme situation. Even in my life, I’ve had times where it took me weeks or months or, in a few cases, even years to be at a point where I was able to forgive, but with more practice, it’s gotten easier and faster, and the healing process is easier and faster too. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/15 "2015-09-21T19:45:52Z")
For me, the prerequisite for forgiveness is repentance from the other person. If they don’t regret what they did, why should I forgive them for it? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/16 "2015-09-21T19:52:33Z")
Yes. With one exception that I am working on, I have forgiven everyone whoever hurt or damaged me in any way. Automatically, in most cases, because I don’t take it personally and because of the way I define forgiveness, which isn’t mine but it it perfect: forgiveness is letting go of the hope that the past could be any different. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/17 "2015-09-21T19:55:45Z")
And I am really disheartened by the way so many people missed the words in the OP entirely, it seems. Let me simplify: forgiveness is for the one doing the forgiving, not the one being forgiven. Where that person is at doesn’t matter, because it isn’t about them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/18 "2015-09-22T01:23:41Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And I am really disheartened by the way so many people missed the words in the OP entirely, it seems. > > Let me simplify: forgiveness is for the one doing the forgiving, not the one being forgiven. Where that person is at doesn’t matter, because it isn’t about them. Again, imagine that I announce that yours truly, this guy right here – “the one doing the forgiving” – feels terrific, because I forgive someone. And I then hasten to add that, since I of course don’t condone what he’s done, I of course believe he should be punished to the full extent of the law. And imagine you raise an eyebrow and ask me how I’d be acting if I _hadn’t_ forgiven him. It’s not about him; it’s about me: how would I be different? And imagine I reply – with earnest, honest sincerity – that I’d be acting exactly the same, except I wouldn’t be cheerily mentioning that I’ve forgiven him. _“The question of justice is separate from the issue of forgiveness,”_ I say sternly. I then follow up with a quick _“Woo-HOO! I sure feel GREAT for forgiving him!”_ And then: _“Having said that, let’s bring on the justice!”_ And then: _“WOO-HOO!”_ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/19 "2015-09-22T01:57:32Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And I am really disheartened by the way so many people missed the words in the OP entirely, it seems. > > Let me simplify: forgiveness is for the one doing the forgiving, not the one being forgiven. Where that person is at doesn’t matter, because it isn’t about them. I didn’t ignore your point. But I happen to disagree with it. To me, forgiveness is something you’re doing for the person you’re forgiving. If you forgave somebody but never told somebody you were forgiving them, what would be the point? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956/20 "2015-09-22T02:37:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I didn’t ignore your point. But I happen to disagree with it. > > To me, forgiveness is something you’re doing for the person you’re forgiving. If you forgave somebody but never told somebody you were forgiving them, what would be the point? Perhaps one of my all time favorite quotes will shed a little light: > [@](#): > > “Resentment is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die.” Now, apart from the whole question of forgiveness, and who it’s for, does that quote, whether you necessarily agree with it or not, make sense to you? Do you comprehend the sentiment being expressed? If you do, then I think it should help you understand the purpose of forgiveness and how it is emphatically not about whomever you forgive. Presumably, you have no control over the original wound requiring forgiveness. But you have absolute control over how you respond. When you hang on to grudges, resentment, anger, it is you re-wounding yourself. It is you swallowing poison waiting for the other person to die. Forgiving heals _you_. Try thinking of it like this: if the person who wounded you meant to do so, wanted to harm you, hurt you, cause you pain, they would be _delighted_ to know that you have this knot of anger inside. They would be delighted to know that you are not at peace because you want them to be regretful and they are not. They would be thrilled to know that you are still unhappy every day because of what they did to you. By forgiving them, you make sure they don’t cause you any more pain or harm than they already have. You are taking back your power. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forgiveness/731956.md?page=2)