# Fork Hillary 3: The Final Forking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726 "2008-03-18T00:01:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1 "2008-03-18T00:01:36Z")
[There will be no redo in Florida](http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed1/idUSN1763038420080317): > [@](#): > > The chairwoman of the Florida Democratic Party, Karen Thurman, said thousands of voters had sent in messages expressing their preference after the Democratic National Committee invalidated the January 29 balloting to punish Florida for holding its primary early. > > “The consensus is clear: Florida doesn’t want to vote again. So we won’t,” Thurman said in a statement. I see something on the wall over there. I think…I think it might be handwriting. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2008, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2 "2008-03-18T00:03:25Z")
What does this mean for efforts to seat their delegates as-is? Is that just a complete non-starter? ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2008, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/3 "2008-03-18T00:06:22Z")
If youn tilt your head a little you can read the writting better on the wall. 😃 Nice. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2008, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/4 "2008-03-18T00:23:53Z")
[QUOTE=Absolute] What does this mean for efforts to seat their delegates as-is? Is that just a complete non-starter? [/QUOTE] It’s up to the DNC, which I think has telegraphed that won’t seat the delegates as is although I’ve see seating half of them floated as a possibility). I think that just the fact that a Democrats in a state which is ostensibly friendly to Clinton have decided against her shows which way the wind is blowing. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2008, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/5 "2008-03-18T00:29:17Z")
From the linked article: > [@](#): > > DNC spokeswoman Stacie Paxton said about the Florida decision: “We will continue to work with Florida to come to a solution that’s fair and within the rules.” What the heck does that mean? How will they continue to work with them? What’s a “fair” solution? And still “within the rules,” no less? That just doesn’t make any sense. [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] It’s up to the DNC, which I think has telegraphed that won’t seat the delegates as is although I’ve see seating half of them floated as a possibility). I think that just the fact that a Democrats in a state which is ostensibly friendly to Clinton have decided against her shows which way the wind is blowing. [/QUOTE] I’m not so sure that’s what it shows. I suspect that a LOT of Hillary supporters wrote to express their anger that they might have to vote _again_, and the expense to the taxpayers, yadda, yadda, yadda, and that they’d rather take the chance to have Hillary’s delegates seated at the convention as is, _knowing_ she has the lead, rather than _risking_ that she’d lose it. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/6 "2008-03-18T00:55:27Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] I suspect that a LOT of Hillary supporters wrote to express their anger that they might have to vote _again_, and the expense to the taxpayers, yadda, yadda, yadda, and that they’d rather take the chance to have Hillary’s delegates seated at the convention as is, _knowing_ she has the lead, rather than _risking_ that she’d lose it. [/QUOTE] I agree. I can see three camps arguing against a new vote. 1. Stubborn Floridians with no particular dog in this race who would rather fight the party than get a do over, just because they resent the national party telling them what to do. 2. Obama supporters who want to deprive Clinton of the delegates, and hope the party will not seat the delegates. 3. Clinton supporters who think Clinton wouldn’t fare as well in a do-over, and want the party to seat the delegates, or at least spare her the loss. No way of knowing which of these was the majority. Or if Thurman is even telling the truth being led by letters from voters. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/7 "2008-03-18T02:54:54Z")
Well I am repeating a little of what I’ve said [elsewhere](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9586290&postcount=88) but what the heck. The Rules committee is going to be dominated by Dean and Obama supporters (given he’s won more states). The only way Florida will be seated as is is with Obama’s say-so. The expectation is that by then he will be able to give his say-so, either by way of an outright victory in hand, or by way of agreement with HRC to split them evenly and thus make it a zero sum game. Obama’s pledged delegate lead is now 169 and 139 total per CNN (as linked to in my link). Hillary picking up a net of 15 to 30 on the rest would be possible, maybe, even doubling that keeps her pledged delegate loss over 100. Overtaking him in the popular count also seems doubtful, even counting Florida as is, and Michigan has been polling neck and neck. Pelosi has thrown her weight behind respecting the delegate count, which is just short of announcing her influential vote for Obama. The concept that supers en masse are going to overturn that big of a delegate count is ludicrous even if Obama just hobbles from here. The question now is not what the writing on the wall says but at what point Hillary will decide to read it … and if some one will need to force her to put on the glasses. And how Obama will beat McCain. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2008, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/8 "2008-03-18T03:00:26Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I see something on the wall over there. I think…I think it might be handwriting. [/QUOTE] I can’t see it? Is it behind that fat lady signing? ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2008, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/9 "2008-03-18T03:19:38Z")
[QUOTE=NurseCarmen] I can’t see it? Is it behind that fat lady signing? [/QUOTE] Even I’d go to see that opera! Imagine Maria Callas as Brunhilde beckoning and signing furiously with bleeding fingers during Ride of the Valkyries, the audience in rapt silence, awe, and horror, as she twists her fingers into what can only be the fierce cry Hojotoho! Hojotoho!!! ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/10 "2008-03-18T03:21:10Z")
[QUOTE=Onomatopoeia] Even I’d go to see that opera! Imagine Maria Callas as Brunhilde beckoning and signing furiously with bleeding fingers during Ride of the Valkyries, the audience in rapt silence, awe, and horror, as she twists her fingers into what can only be the fierce cry Hojotoho! Hojotoho!!! [/QUOTE] Well played. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2008, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/11 "2008-03-18T04:53:11Z")
RealClearPolitics has now added estimates for the total popular vote including Iowa, Nevada, Maine & Washington, and [Obama is ahead by 813,747](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html) votes. Even when you include Michigan (where Obama got 0 votes) and Florida, he’s _still_ ahead in the popular vote by nearly 200,000 votes! Forkage is imminent. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2008, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/12 "2008-03-18T17:02:11Z")
Is it possible for the convention to seat _unpledged_ delegations from Florida and Michigan? If so, how does that impact the current math? ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/13 "2008-03-18T17:49:03Z")
The unbearable irony of all of this to me is that Hillary is on the one hand hamming and hawing about how it would be such a great injustice if the votes of the people of Florida and Michigan aren’t counted, when she admittedly has to win by disrespecting and overturning the voters of the rest of the country through a super-delegate putsch. Wait, could it be… She doesn’t care about democracy and just wants to be president? naw… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/14 "2008-03-20T20:38:49Z")
This is getting more depressing by the day. I think the bitch is going to come back and win this thing. Polls are going south. As they say, Pennsylvania is Philly and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between. I think the Wright thing just isn’t going to stop and white flight away from Obama will accelerate. If she pulls this off, I’m voting for Nader. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/15 "2008-03-20T20:44:50Z")
I hate to say it but I had a premonition about this. Ugh. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/16 "2008-03-20T20:58:20Z")
[Offered](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080320/ts_nm/usa_politics_gallup_dc) without comment as this seemed an appropriate thread to put it in: > [@](#): > > Clinton takes lead over Obama in Gallup poll > > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton has moved into a significant lead over Barack Obama among Democratic voters, according to a new Gallup poll. > ADVERTISEMENT > > The March 14-18 national survey of 1,209 Democratic and Democratic-leaning voters gave Clinton, a New York senator, a 49 percent to 42 percent edge over Obama, an Illinois senator. The poll has an error margin of 3 percentage points. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/17 "2008-03-20T21:00:08Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] This is getting more depressing by the day. I think the bitch is going to come back and win this thing. Polls are going south. As they say, Pennsylvania is Philly and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between. I think the Wright thing just isn’t going to stop and white flight away from Obama will accelerate. If she pulls this off, I’m voting for Nader. [/QUOTE] Stop with the pessimism, OK? Even Hillary’s own campaign is acknowledging that her chances are slimmer by the day. > [@](#): > > . . . For Mrs. Clinton, all this has seemed something of a long shot since her defeats in February. But that shot seems to have grown a little longer. > > . . . > > In truth, in interviews, Mrs. Clinton’s advisers said that task was tough and growing tougher. . . > > . . . > > Aides to the two candidates said even with the best possible showing for Mrs. Clinton in the states ahead, it was hard to see how she could pass Mr. Obama without Michigan and Florida. > > . . . > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/us/politics/20memo.html?hp](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/us/politics/20memo.html?hp) The only thing they’ve got left right now is spin, and they’re working it like the dog devils that they are. But they will not prevail. We can not LET them prevail. Instead of fretting, do your part; buy Obama merchandise and send it to Pennsylvania, talk to all your friends and family and make sure their support hasn’t wavered, make calls into upcoming primary states, donate money to the campaign, contact undeclared superdelegates from your own state. There is a lot you can do to help this campaign, and wringing your hands in despair before it’s over isn’t one of them. FIRED UP! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/18 "2008-03-20T21:06:19Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] Forkage is imminent. 🙂 [/QUOTE] I wish I could be so optimistic. From my perspective, the tines are still bending. As the last days close in, who knows what may emanate from the Clinton camp. Lawsuits? Revelations that Obama engages in Muslim tree worship? Secret diaries proving that Hillary has successfully brokered world peace _and_ low interest rates? Hell, Obama and McCain could be holding their first official post-convention debate, and she’d be apt to wander in and demand that the People’s Will be honored and the whole process redone. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/19 "2008-03-20T21:07:39Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] This is getting more depressing by the day. I think the bitch is going to come back and win this thing. Polls are going south. As they say, Pennsylvania is Philly and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between. I think the Wright thing just isn’t going to stop and white flight away from Obama will accelerate. If she pulls this off, I’m voting for Nader. [/QUOTE] If Clinton wins PA, that doesn’t mean she wins the whole shebang. Not by a long shot. Do you see superdelegates droping like flies? In fact any rational superdelegate would consider Obama’s speech as principles over expediency, they are not going to drop him enmasse after working this hard to get to where he is - the people, the MAJORITY of people came to the poles, voted for him and he went on to win more states, double the amount of Hillary. I don’t think the superdelegates are fooled enough to over turn that kind of showing. He’s acted noble in the wake of this speech, not gloating and rolling in it but moving on and attacking the issues. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/20 "2008-03-20T21:12:02Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] Lawsuits? Revelations that Obama engages in Muslim tree worship? Hell, Obama and McCain could be holding their first official post-convention debate, and she’d be apt to wander in and demand that the People’s Will be honored and the whole process redone. :dubious: [/QUOTE] If Obama engages in Tree worship I’m still going to back him… 😃 And I’d love to see Clinton walk in on one of Obama and McCains speeches…Chelsea could take her hand and guide her out the back…saying, _It’s ok momma…it’s ok…_ :eek: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=2)