# Fork Hillary 3: The Final Forking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726 "2008-03-18T00:01:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 108
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2141 "2008-06-01T01:18:49Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Hillary’s supporters — with the obvious exception of any Dopers — are just… vile. [/QUOTE] Did you hear them shouting, “McCain” at the meeting? I bet that pissed off a lot of important people. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2142 "2008-06-01T01:23:17Z")
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe] Did you hear them shouting, “McCain” at the meeting? I bet that pissed off a lot of important people. [/QUOTE] figured I would share: [supporter](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KACQuZVAE3s) ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2143 "2008-06-01T01:32:39Z")
[QUOTE=holmes] figured I would share: [supporter](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KACQuZVAE3s) [/QUOTE] What can you expect? She deserves the bad publicity. She invited the troublemakers and troublemakers she got. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2144 "2008-06-01T01:34:11Z")
[QUOTE=holmes] figured I would share: [supporter](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KACQuZVAE3s) [/QUOTE] Yeah, and we Obama supporters are hateful. That is the shit that Hillary hath wrought. Thanks, Hil! ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2145 "2008-06-01T01:55:43Z")
I’m loving every minute of this debacle. Hillary is being shown in her true form. I hope this buries her so deep she can see China. It won’t, of course. Like every bad penny, she and Bill will keep haunting the Dems forever. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2146 "2008-06-01T01:55:58Z")
Can someone explain to me why Clinton keeps saying she’s gotten the majority of the “popular vote” in the primaries and caucuses? Is she correct, if you count her votes from Florida and Michigan and don’t give Obama credit for the uncommitted votes? ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2147 "2008-06-01T02:01:00Z")
[QUOTE=AuntiePam] Can someone explain to me why Clinton keeps saying she’s gotten the majority of the “popular vote” in the primaries and caucuses? Is she correct, if you count her votes from Florida and Michigan and don’t give Obama credit for the uncommitted votes? [/QUOTE] Nope, She’s only correct if you count FL and MI as is, and you take out 4 caucus states. Because caucuses don’t count along with states that border Illinois and states that aren’t swing-states in the election. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2148 "2008-06-01T02:18:12Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Under the Constitution, slaves were worth 3/5. MI and FL voters, not quite that much. [/quote] Spare me the righteous indignation. Way back when you said that there was nothing to worry about because the delegates would be seated when the candidate was decided. You didn’t give a crap until Hillary did, so don’t even try to take the high ground. > [@](#): > > Will this mollify the voters there, or will they feel themselves condescended to instead? I have a strong suspicion, and I think most of you do too. I feel more condescended to by you and Hillary than by the DNC and the Rules committee. Supporting the loss of delegates until she started losing. How noble. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2149 "2008-06-01T03:00:35Z")
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe] Nope, She’s only correct if you count FL and MI as is, and you take out 4 caucus states. Because caucuses don’t count along with states that border Illinois and states that aren’t swing-states in the election. [/QUOTE] Okey dokey then. 🙂 I’ve looked but can’t find a simple state-by-state count – how many voted for Clinton, how many for Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2150 "2008-06-01T03:35:03Z")
Sorry, just joking… Here’s a list of vote counts [http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic\_vote\_count.html](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html) ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2151 "2008-06-01T03:52:06Z")
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe] Sorry, just joking… Here’s a list of vote counts [http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic\_vote\_count.html](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html) [/QUOTE] It is important to note that their vote totals that include Michigan, give Obama 0 votes, in spite of the fact that it’s absurd beyond belief that not a single one of the 238,168 votes that went to “uncommitted” was intended for Obama. It’s also extroardinarily unlikely that only 22% of them were intended for him, which is all it would take to wipe out the supposed popular vote “lead” of 52,331 votes they’re showing for Hillary, when all primaries _and_ caucuses are included. I don’t expect the Hillary supporters to acknowledge this, of course, but anyone being honest recognizes the truth in these numbers. There is really no question that Barack Obama has received more votes nationwide than Hillary Clinton, even with the bogus name recognition contests that voters were told wouldn’t count, included. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2152 "2008-06-01T03:54:24Z")
**Merk** , I got that you were joking and thought it was damn funny. There’s been a dearth of humor in this thread. Thanks for the link. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2153 "2008-06-01T04:13:22Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Under the Constitution, slaves were worth 3/5. MI and FL voters, not quite that much. [/QUOTE] You mean the FL/MI _delegates_ aren’t worth that much. The nomination isn’t decided by popular vote and, if only thirty-seven people had turned out for the elections in those states, the exact same number of delegates would still be attending the convention and their votes worth the same amount. But I suppose that doesn’t sound so gut-wrenching and sad. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2154 "2008-06-01T04:23:24Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] Do you even have any idea what the Von Schlieffen plan is? [/QUOTE] IIRC, his deathbed request was, “Keep the left wing strong.” Words to live by. Just not in the way he meant. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2155 "2008-06-01T04:29:35Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] **jayjay** , all right then, what is \*your \* strategy for attempting to win the support of mistrustful Clinton supporters to the Obama cause? You’ve had plenty of time to think about it, obviously. So what do you plan to do now? [/QUOTE] As Matt Yglesias said today, “People who are seriously drawn to Clinton on _feminist_ grounds but are considering staying home in the fall so McCain can replace John Paul Stevens with another justice in the mold of Alito or Roberts _really_ need to think harder.” I’m sure it’s possible to get that message across. As far as the “hardworking white Americans” of WV, KY, TN, AR, and OK go, my plan is to welcome them back whenever they come back on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2156 "2008-06-01T04:35:08Z")
A point I rarely see mentioned about Florida and Michigan is that the voters were told the results would not count _at the time of the vote_. That kept many from even going to the polls. Even if the punishment for breaking party rules was rescinded, re-enfranchising those delegates now with the results as they stand wouldn’t necessarily reflect the will of people. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2157 "2008-06-01T04:42:53Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Or the Schlieffen plan. [/QUOTE] I’m not convinced the metaphor is sound, but neither is your example. The Schlieffen plan specifically had the German Army deal with the French Army _first_, so it could face the Russian Army without worrying about being attacked in the back. Or are you thinking of another Schlieffen plan? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2158 "2008-06-01T04:46:53Z")
[QUOTE=Greg Charles] A point I rarely see mentioned about Florida and Michigan is that the voters were told the results would not count _at the time of the vote_. That kept many from even going to the polls. Even if the punishment for breaking party rules was rescinded, re-enfranchising those delegates now with the results as they stand wouldn’t necessarily reflect the will of people. [/QUOTE] Oh we say it all the time. In fact, [Hillary Clinton herself said that very thing](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/11/AR2007101100859.html)! > [@Hillary Clinton](#): > > **October 11, 2007** > > . . . It’s clear, this election they’re having is not going to count for anything. . . Only, once she realized she hadn’t wrapped up he nomination on Super Tuesday without them, then all of a sudden she became an advocate against “disenfrachisement”. :rolleyes: On edit: Hi Honey! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2159 "2008-06-01T04:49:25Z")
Greg, that point was made several times today in the meeting. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/2160 "2008-06-01T04:52:59Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] IIRC, his deathbed request was, “Keep the left wing strong.” Words to live by. Just not in the way he meant. 🙂 [/QUOTE] The _right_ wing, goshdarnit. First **ElvisL1ves** , now you. There are unconfirmed reports of a loud hum emanating from the von Schlieffen mausoleum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=107) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=109)