# Fork Hillary 3: The Final Forking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726 "2008-03-18T00:01:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/361 "2008-03-26T23:55:14Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] _That’s_ your cite? :dubious: Is the FL Democratic Party like the Mormon priesthood, where every voter is also a party leader? Or maybe that’s a whoosh. [/QUOTE] I’m trying to abide, **tom** , I really am… You said the party leaders did not want a redo. That quote mentioned thousands of people, who could not be anything but voters. Someone upthread already provided a far more substantive rebuttal than you could care to give, though, so let’s let that drop. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/362 "2008-03-27T00:06:18Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] _That’s_ your cite? :dubious: Is the FL Democratic Party like the Mormon priesthood, where every voter is also a party leader? Or maybe that’s a whoosh. Do you have anything \*substantive \* that would suggest the voters of MI and FL \*want \* to be disenfranchised? One might think that, in FL anyway, they’d have had enough of that already, without getting it from the other party too. [/quote] Florida’s Democratic chairwoman isn’t substantive enough for you? She’s the HEAD of the Democratic Party in Florida, for heaven’s sake! > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > To those of you who have said it, Obama’s “I’ll abide by the DNC ruling” is precisely the pseudo-helpless handwringing I mentioned earlier. The Clinton campaign was in there discussing alternatives, trying to find ways to make a do-over work, but of course it wasn’t going to without the concurrence of the Obama campaign either, now was it? No, our “non-traditional politician”, being “above that kind of thing”, while demonstrating “uniting leadership”, was in fact supporting the disenfranchisement of people he thought might vote for his opponent, wasn’t he? I’m tired of you waging this false claim. In fact, it is the CLINTON campaign, digging in their heels and demanding that either the delegates are seated ‘as is’ or complete re-votes are the only 2 options, while [Obama’s campaign has offered to negotiate a compromise](http://www.tboblogs.com/index.php/news/story/clinton-campaign-holds-out-against-negotiation-over-florida-michigan/), which they have ceremoniously shot down, while tarring him with accusations of putting the future of this country at risk. How brazen! But typical of them, it’s their way or the highway. THAT is why Hillary Clinton would SUCK as a President, and Barack Obama would shine. He’s willing to negotiate compromise, and she is NOT. Quit saying he is advocating disenfranchising people! It is NOT true! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/363 "2008-03-27T00:56:42Z")
Hey **Shayna** , it’s not “NOT true” … it’s a misspeak. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/364 "2008-03-27T01:16:42Z")
When Hillary misspeaks, she really makes a job of it. [This](http://www.breitbart.tv/html/68124.html) from the Air Force colonel who was the flight commander on Hillary’s trip to Bosnia. I posted it in the Bosnia thread but I think it bears repeating here. (Essentially, he says that nothing she said actually happened. There was no evasive landing, no one was told to sit on their bulletproof vests (apparently this only happens in the movies; Apocalypse Now to be exact 😃 ); no bullets were flying (the commander on the ground had things sewn up so tightly that “not even a bumblebee” was flying around); no order was given to run for the cars; etc., etc.) She made that entire story up out of whole cloth. I can’t believe it isn’t all over the news, but it’s already dropped off Drudge and I’ve seen nothing on it in the MSM. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crocodiles_And_Boulevards)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/365 "2008-03-27T01:26:31Z")
Gah, check this out: [http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/26/lewinsky-questioner-surprised-with-chelseas-response/](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/26/lewinsky-questioner-surprised-with-chelseas-response/) Then scroll down to the comments. The rabid Obama supporters are the ones being divisive in the party. For the most part, in every debate I’ve read or seen between Clinton supporters and Obama supporters it’s been Clinton’s who’ve been – at the least – tactful. Why can’t the aggressive Obama supporters realize that by gnashing their teeth in apoplectic rage they are distancing themselves from the Dems who are on the fence between Obama and Clinton? I genuinely liked Obama before I started to see his supporters. That fanboy fanaticism that his followers often have has completely turned me off to his possible nomination, though. ---
**Author:** ![vison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vison)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/366 "2008-03-27T01:33:29Z")
[QUOTE=Crocodiles And Boulevards] Gah, check this out: [http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/26/lewinsky-questioner-surprised-with-chelseas-response/](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/26/lewinsky-questioner-surprised-with-chelseas-response/) Then scroll down to the comments. The rabid Obama supporters are the ones being divisive in the party. For the most part, in every debate I’ve read or seen between Clinton supporters and Obama supporters it’s been Clinton’s who’ve been – at the least – tactful. Why can’t the aggressive Obama supporters realize that by gnashing their teeth in apoplectic rage they are distancing themselves from the Dems who are on the fence between Obama and Clinton? I genuinely liked Obama before I started to see his supporters. That fanboy fanaticism that his followers often have has completely turned me off to his possible nomination, though. [/QUOTE] How very odd. Since after reading and listening to many of the same events, blogs, newspaper articles, etc., my opinion is exactly opposite. This thread provides a perfect example. But I’m a definite outsider. Interested, but an outsider. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/367 "2008-03-27T01:34:15Z")
[QUOTE=Crocodiles And Boulevards] Gah, check this out: [http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/26/lewinsky-questioner-surprised-with-chelseas-response/](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/26/lewinsky-questioner-surprised-with-chelseas-response/) Then scroll down to the comments. The rabid Obama supporters are the ones being divisive in the party. For the most part, in every debate I’ve read or seen between Clinton supporters and Obama supporters it’s been Clinton’s who’ve been – at the least – tactful. Why can’t the aggressive Obama supporters realize that by gnashing their teeth in apoplectic rage they are distancing themselves from the Dems who are on the fence between Obama and Clinton? I genuinely liked Obama before I started to see his supporters. That fanboy fanaticism that his followers often have has completely turned me off to his possible nomination, though. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry but I am an Obama supporter and have been for a long while, for you to say you are turned off to a candidate because of their supporters and not because of their personal integrity is … silly. I guess that’s about as negative as I should go in Great Debates. I’m not even sure why I responded to this post, **Crocodiles And Boulevards** appears to be baiting Obama supporters - guess I took the bait. BTW - I see no reference that the kid who asked the question in the linked article was an Obamacon… ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/368 "2008-03-27T01:37:09Z")
[QUOTE=Crocodiles And Boulevards] I genuinely liked Obama before I started to see his supporters. That fanboy fanaticism that his followers often have has completely turned me off to his possible nomination, though. [/QUOTE] I always see this said at least once per election, and it never ceases to amaze me. It’s an even weaker form of guilt by association than the Jeremiah Wright stuff. You’re going to base your opinion of the man by the words of the lowest common denominator of his supporters, people whom he has no control over? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/369 "2008-03-27T01:39:15Z")
[QUOTE=Crocodiles And Boulevards] Then scroll down to the comments. The rabid Obama supporters are the ones being divisive in the party. For the most part, in every debate I’ve read or seen between Clinton supporters and Obama supporters it’s been Clinton’s who’ve been – at the least – tactful. Why can’t the aggressive Obama supporters realize that by gnashing their teeth in apoplectic rage they are distancing themselves from the Dems who are on the fence between Obama and Clinton? [/QUOTE] Would it be surprising that Tonya Harding fans liked Nancy Kerrigan more than Kerrigan fans liked Harding? When the campaign is overwhelmingly dirty in one direction, those are exactly the results you should expect. Obama supporters despise Hillary for the filthy campaign she has run. If she had stayed on the high road, I could have lived with her although she was my #8 Democratic choice from the start. Now she almost makes Cheney look cuddly. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/370 "2008-03-27T01:53:40Z")
Apparently Clinton has hit a new low, her personal ratings are the lowest recorded by NBC-WJS Polls in 7 years. Yes, it’s true, people think Clinton [sucks](http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/26/821438.aspx). Finally, some confirmation. 🙂 > [@](#): > > As expected, one of the two major Democratic candidates saw a downturn in the latest NBC/WSJ poll, but it’s not the candidate that you think. Hillary Clinton is sporting the lowest personal ratings of the campaign. Moreover, her 37 percent positive rating is the lowest the NBC/WSJ poll has recorded since March 2001, two months after she was elected to the U.S. Senate from New York. [Cite](http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/26/821438.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/371 "2008-03-27T01:54:31Z")
[QUOTE=Starving Artist] I can’t believe it isn’t all over the news, but it’s already dropped off Drudge and I’ve seen nothing on it in the MSM. 😕 [/QUOTE] This puzzles me, too. And yet Joe Scarborough (for one) is _still_ replaying the Wright speeches for his morning viewers. Methinks he is playing saboteur for the Republicans, and also trying to keep Hillary alive. He keeps saying he doesn’t think the Bosnia remarks are as big a deal as the Wright speeches. _Whaz..huh?_ You mean factual misrepresentations _by an actual candidate_ are less important than inflammatory remarks by one of the other candidate’s _supporters_? How’s _that_ work? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/372 "2008-03-27T01:57:39Z")
[QUOTE=Crocodiles And Boulevards] Gah, check this out: [http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/26/lewinsky-questioner-surprised-with-chelseas-response/](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/26/lewinsky-questioner-surprised-with-chelseas-response/) Then scroll down to the comments. The rabid Obama supporters are the ones being divisive in the party. For the most part, in every debate I’ve read or seen between Clinton supporters and Obama supporters it’s been Clinton’s who’ve been – at the least – tactful. Why can’t the aggressive Obama supporters realize that by gnashing their teeth in apoplectic rage they are distancing themselves from the Dems who are on the fence between Obama and Clinton? I genuinely liked Obama before I started to see his supporters. That fanboy fanaticism that his followers often have has completely turned me off to his possible nomination, though. [/QUOTE] I don’t get it. I don’t see anything so bad in the comments. Regardless it makes little sense to judge a candidate because of a few distasteful or overzealous supporters. They all have them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/373 "2008-03-27T02:05:31Z")
[QUOTE=Bosstone] Because the results are tainted by the knowledge that the votes wouldn’t count. [/QUOTE] So, Obama gets to vote over and over until he gets the results _he_ wants, _then we count them. Great. \*\* Spiny Norman_ Generally, things in the Dem Convention are handled by votes, delagets being the voters. Obama has a slight majority of said delegate, thus votes, thus more or less, he gets what he wants. Unless the SuperDelegates decide they really want to win the general election, thus they need MI & Fla, thus they over-rule him. **Shayna** Your “cite” (that Clinton is the one refusing to compromise, while we all know it’s Obama) is a _blog_. :rolleyes: Got a reliable, unbiased cite? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/374 "2008-03-27T02:10:59Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] \ Spiny Norman\*\* Generally, things in the Dem Convention are handled by votes, delagets being the voters. Obama has a slight majority of said delegate, thus votes, thus more or less, he gets what he wants. Unless the SuperDelegates decide they really want to win the general election, thus they need MI & Fla, thus they over-rule him. [/QUOTE] Underlining mine. I’m just makig sure we’re on the same page - If supers decide they want to win the general election in november they should overrule Obama and vote Clinton??? This makes no sense to me, not because I am an Obama supporter but because you think Clinton would beat McCain - and that you appear to infer the supers should supercede popular opinion and vote against Obama. Sounds foolish to me if they actually did do that. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/375 "2008-03-27T02:16:49Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] So, Obama gets to vote over and over until he gets the results _he_ wants, \*then \*we count them. Great. [/QUOTE] What on earth are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/376 "2008-03-27T02:27:52Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Do you have anything \*substantive \* that would suggest the voters of MI and FL \*want \* to be disenfranchised? One might think that, in FL anyway, they’d have had enough of that already, without getting it from the other party too. [/QUOTE] Kinda funny since a couple of months ago you said that [none of the voters were disenfranchised.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9421610&postcount=32) What changed your mind? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/377 "2008-03-27T02:34:04Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Underlining mine. I’m just makig sure we’re on the same page - If supers decide they want to win the general election in november they should overrule Obama and vote Clinton??? [/QUOTE] No, they should over-rule Obama and vote to let Fla & MI in (with maybe some penalty). This should not be enough to overcome Obama’s lead. Bosstone: In reply to " Quote: Originally Posted by DrDeth **Why should they want a RE-vote? They voted, but your candidate is making sure their votes aren’t counted. Why should they need to revote? Why not just use the vote they already cast?** \*Because the results are tainted by the knowledge that the votes wouldn’t count. \*" They voted, we shoudl count their votes. It is the will of the people, right? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crocodiles_And_Boulevards)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/378 "2008-03-27T03:01:29Z")
[QUOTE=Bosstone] I always see this said at least once per election, and it never ceases to amaze me. It’s an even weaker form of guilt by association than the Jeremiah Wright stuff. You’re going to base your opinion of the man by the words of the lowest common denominator of his supporters, people whom he has no control over? [/QUOTE] No, I didn’t say that I wouldn’t vote for him. I said that it killed my _enthusiasm_. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/379 "2008-03-27T03:12:23Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] They voted, we shoudl count their votes. It is the will of the people, right? :dubious: [/QUOTE] Do you prefer cake or death? It wasn’t a contest conducted fairly. If Florida had played by the rules and still turned out overwhelmingly for Clinton, that’s life. If they did a revote and turned out for Clinton, fine. But the circumstances in which the votes were taken as they stand are illegitimate by the DNC’s rules. You can call it disenfranchising the voters, but it’s as much disenfranchisement as is not registering to vote until after the cutoff date and thus being unable to participate in the election. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/380 "2008-03-27T04:57:10Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] So, Obama gets to vote over and over until he gets the results _he_ wants, \*then \*we count them. Great. [/QUOTE] Dude, wait - what? Has Obama voted more than once? Where? When? Halp! > [@](#): > > **Spiny Norman** Generally, things in the Dem Convention are handled by votes, delagets being the voters. Obama has a slight majority of said delegate, thus votes, thus more or less, he gets what he wants. Unless the SuperDelegates decide they really want to win the general election, thus they need MI & Fla, thus they over-rule him. Cool. I’ll remember that for when the convention begins. Does it have anything to do with a Florida/Miami do-over? Or are you saying that at the convention, the Dems will be forced to throw the voters in those states a bone to prevent them from voting McCain in the general election? I can see how that could be sorta logical, but that would mean adding to the delegate count in the middle of the convention, I guess. Does Robert’s Rules of Order cover that eventuality? Would it work? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=20)