# Fork Hillary 3: The Final Forking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726 "2008-03-18T00:01:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/401 "2008-03-27T23:12:30Z")
[A good summation on Hillary’s dramatic lack of transparency](http://www.reason.org/commentaries/hydro_20080322.shtml). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/402 "2008-03-28T00:17:03Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Seriously, I don’t see how anyone who’s not somehow delusional comes to this conclusion. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > The state primaries are the business of the state parties and the DNC. They’re not the business of the campaigns. You have an overliteral understanding of the process, and apparently none at all about what leadership is. For pity’s sake, how is somebody who can’t commit to making a deal between factions of his own damn party going to negotiate a peace treaty in the Middle East? > [@](#): > > The PROPER way to deal with this is to negotiate through the DNC Yep, and one campaign was trying to do exactly that. One tried \*not \* to. The effort needed both. So the effort failed. > [@](#): > > The issue of the MI/FL primaries was decided LAST FREAKIN’ YEAR, and none of the campaigns had the slightest problem with the DNC’s decision to strip the delegates. None that were expressed in public, under the sleeping-dog theory. But then, we all thought it wouldn’t matter, right? That the delegates would be seated after the nomination was settled. Again, you’re being overliteral, and thereby missing the point. > [@](#): > > Only after Clinton’s inevitability began to tarnish Only after it became clear she’d win both states, even straight up, that is. > [@](#): > > the “poor, disenfranchised” Florida and Michigan voters Do you think that is not who they are? Or are you putting it in quotes by way of admitting it’s true, but you just don’t want to do anything more about it than Obama does? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/403 "2008-03-28T00:50:13Z")
All I see is Clinton desperately scrabbling for every vote she can possibly grab out of the ether because she’s LOSING. They broke the rules, they pay the consequences. If they’re rewarded for breaking those rules _this_ year, the next time we’ll be having primaries in 2010. It’s a moot point, anyway. The supers are going to start breaking for Obama really soon because the Clinton campaign just can’t help but rub people the wrong way. That maneuver by Clinton’s financiers to try to blackmail Pelosi into retracting her contention that the supers shouldn’t go against the will of the people by threatening to defund the DCCC really helped Clinton a lot, didn’t it? Now the Congressional supers are feeling like they’re being given a Soprano-type warning…vote for our mole or you don’t get any dough. Obama is changing the face of campaign financing. He has over 1 MILLION DONORS, small donors who are ordinary voters. We don’t need the fatcat corporatist puppeteers anymore. They can go pound sand because they don’t belong in a party of the people. Let them buy some Republicans…Democrats aren’t for sale anymore, and we don’t want their shill, Senator Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/404 "2008-03-28T00:51:29Z")
Dear **Elvis** , I like you. Your political heart is in the right place. Because of this, I’m going to repost something I posted in [this GD thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=461198) > [@](#): > > Like with Hilary. I voted for her for senator. I believed her to be sincere. I defended her against charges of carpetbagging. I was wrong and I realized this just before she decided to run for President. She’s a power-hungry liar and if a Republican were to call her a power-hungry liar, I’d not find it insulting at all. It’s only the truth. > > Now, if after I realized she was a power-hungry liar, I continued to support her and vote for her-- then I’d be dumb, wouldn’t I? How could I complain about the insulting tone of anyone calling me a fool for voting for her when I know she is what she is? Just like I still don’t understand why a few of my Republican friends voted for Bush in '04. These are smart people and by then it was plain to see what kind of president he was. Yet they voted for him. You remind me of them. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/405 "2008-03-28T01:51:27Z")
I don’t know if anyone’s noticed, and I don’t know if **Elvis** read my long post to him waay up thread. But **Elvis** is talking the way I’d expect him to talk. Like he’s got conviction. Who am I to say he’s dead wrong? I don’t know if in his heart of hearts he believes what he says, or if he doesn’t like black people, or he simply want’s Hillary to win because he thinks she’d be the best POTUS above Barack Obama and John McCain. I have no idea why he says what he does. But I do know one thing - he’s predictably anti-Barack Obama. That’s ok too. No one said he has to have ALL the voters - just the majority 😃 I believe with all I am that Obama is going to win this whole shebang, I also believe Clinton will fight until she’s a lame noodle. But I’m not going to sling mud and get over critical when someone is simply stating what they believe. I will say one thing to **Elvis** I know he will understand, because one of our mutual heroes [I think I can speak for us both] said it before me… \*\*“An acre of performance is worth a whole world of promise.” \*\* ~ _Red Auerbach_ And that’s what Obama means to me and a lot of like minded folk I know. ---
**Author:** ![kevja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/406 "2008-03-28T02:56:20Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] I don’t know if anyone’s noticed, and I don’t know if **Elvis** read my long post to him waay up thread. But **Elvis** is talking the way I’d expect him to talk. Like he’s got conviction. Who am I to say he’s dead wrong? I don’t know if in his heart of hearts he believes what he says, or if he doesn’t like black people, or he simply want’s Hillary to win because he thinks she’d be the best POTUS above Barack Obama and John McCain. I have no idea why he says what he does. But I do know one thing - he’s predictably anti-Barack Obama. That’s ok too. No one said he has to have ALL the voters - just the majority 😃 I believe with all I am that Obama is going to win this whole shebang, I also believe Clinton will fight until she’s a lame noodle. But I’m not going to sling mud and get over critical when someone is simply stating what they believe. I will say one thing to **Elvis** I know he will understand, because one of our mutual heroes [I think I can speak for us both] said it before me… \*\*“An acre of performance is worth a whole world of promise.” \*\* ~ _Red Auerbach_ And that’s what Obama means to me and a lot of like minded folk I know. [/QUOTE] Doesn’t like black people? Are you kidding? If you happen to believe Hillary is the better choice for the nomination, that might be a reason. And as a Hillary supporter myself, it has nothing to do with being anti-Barack Obama. If he gets the nomination, I’ll be first in line to cast my vote for him on Nov. 4. Positive campaign. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/407 "2008-03-28T03:55:20Z")
I know I’m becoming a broken record [but …](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120657171729866843.html?mod=politics_primary_hs) > [@](#): > > The racially charged debate over Barack Obama’s relationship with his longtime pastor hasn’t much changed his close contest against Hillary Clinton, or hurt him against Republican nominee-in-waiting John McCain, according to a new Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll. > > Democratic pollster Peter Hart, who conducts the Journal/NBC polls with Republican pollster Bill McInturff, called the latest poll a “myth-buster” that showed the pastor controversy is “not the beginning of the end for the Obama campaign.” > > But both Democrats, and especially New York’s Sen. Clinton, are showing wounds from their prolonged and increasingly bitter nomination contest, which could weaken the ultimate nominee for the general-election showdown against Sen. McCain of Arizona. Even among women, who are the base of Sen. Clinton’s support, she now is viewed negatively by more voters than positively for the first time in a Journal/NBC poll. > > The latest survey has the Democratic rivals in a dead heat, each with 45% support from registered Democratic voters. That is a slight improvement for Sen. Obama, though a statistically insignificant one, from the last Journal/NBC poll, two weeks ago, which had Sen. Clinton leading among Democratic voters, 47% to 43%. > > While Sen. Clinton still leads among white Democrats, her edge shrank to eight points (49% to 41%) from 12 points in early March (51% to 39%). That seems to refute widespread speculation – and fears among Sen. Obama’s backers – that he would lose white support for his bid to be the nation’s first African-American president over the controversy surrounding his former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. of Chicago. Team Clinton’s hopes fade even more. Obama has been hit with that which would have the most potential to harm his campaign: Wright’s ill-spoken rhetoric looping on AM radio and mainstream broadcasts ad nauseum (admittedly just once is enough to provoke some queasiness)- and he is not significantly worse for the wear. This eliminates the last possible path for her longshot - convincing more than 2/3s of the supers that he is too wounded to win. She can make him bleed some from here - and hurt the party in the process - but she bleeds more in balance. There is no path left to her getting the nomination. Dead woman walking. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/408 "2008-03-28T04:08:19Z")
Okay, okay … this is it. I promise. But more evidence of how this ongoing bickering is causing measurable [harm.](http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/election_2008_electoral_college_update) > [@](#): > > When “leaners” are added to the total, the Democrats lead with 247 Electoral Votes to 240 for the GOP. These results, showing a virtual tie, represent a significant improvement for Republicans over the past month. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/409 "2008-03-28T04:40:01Z")
So, what could Obama offer her as a position in his administration that would persuade her to end her campaign and back him? Maybe an ambassadorship? I’ve got it! Ambassador to Bosnia. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/410 "2008-03-28T04:44:58Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] So, what could Obama offer her as a position in his administration that would persuade her to end her campaign and back him? Maybe an ambassadorship? I’ve got it! Ambassador to Bosnia. 😃 [/QUOTE] How about a gig as the prosecutor for the International War Crimes Tribunal? I know who I’m rooting for as the first indictees… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/411 "2008-03-28T09:31:17Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] So, what could Obama offer her as a position in his administration that would persuade her to end her campaign and back him? Maybe an ambassadorship? I’ve got it! Ambassador to Bosnia. 😃 [/QUOTE] Yer wicked. I like the way you think. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/412 "2008-03-28T13:49:18Z")
[PA Sen. Casey to endorse Obama](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/ap_on_el_pr/obama_endorsement) Yet another “Fork you!” to Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/413 "2008-03-28T14:07:02Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Lendervedder] [PA Sen. Casey to endorse Obama](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/ap_on_el_pr/obama_endorsement) Yet another “Fork you!” to Clinton. [/QUOTE] As I noted elsewhere, he actually IS good for something other than not being Rick Santorum! ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/414 "2008-03-28T15:11:35Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Yer wicked. I like the way you think. 🙂 [/QUOTE] 🙂 Didja notice I quote you in my sig? Rarely turn it on, but it just felt right for that post. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/415 "2008-03-28T16:56:12Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] 🙂 Didja notice I quote you in my sig? Rarely turn it on, but it just felt right for that post. [/QUOTE] I have indeed - IIRC, you asked me if I minded when you first included that quote in your sig - and I feel flattered every time I see it! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/416 "2008-03-28T18:50:07Z")
In other election news: 1. Obama’s ahead of Hillary, 50-42, in the Gallup tracker. While I don’t worry about every minute change in the tracking polls, it reinforces the notion that the Wright kerfluffle has only done limited harm to Obama’s prospects. (The tracker also has Obama doing better than Hillary against McCain, though the difference there is within the margin of error.) 2. Sen. Pat Leahy has said Hillary should concede. While Leahy is an Obama supporter, Senators of the same party don’t usually seek out conflict with one another. This is not trivial. It’s one of a number of pebbles that seem to be rolling downhill right now. We’ll see if it turns into an avalanche. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/417 "2008-03-28T19:14:03Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] I have indeed - IIRC, you asked me if I minded when you first included that quote in your sig - and I feel flattered every time I see it! [/QUOTE] 🙂 The sad thing about that quote, though, is that every time I see it I’m reminded that the _Weekly World News_ is now kaput. RIP, Elvis’s alien lovechild; RIP, Bat Boy. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/418 "2008-03-28T19:15:35Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] 🙂 The sad thing about that quote, though, is that every time I see it I’m reminded that the _Weekly World News_ is now kaput. RIP, Elvis’s alien lovechild; RIP, Bat Boy. ☹ [/QUOTE] RIP, Ed Anger. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Airblairxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Airblairxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airblairxxx)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/419 "2008-03-28T20:09:23Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] Okay, okay … this is it. I promise. But more evidence of how this ongoing bickering is causing measurable [harm.](http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/election_2008_electoral_college_update) [/QUOTE] I don’t know how reliable that is. Here’s their methodology: > [@](#): > > Until the Democratic nominee is determined, the polling data used for each state will be based upon an average of the results for Barack Obama vs. John McCain and Hillary Clinton vs. John McCain. Another source for how the electoral college looks at this point in time is [electoral-vote.com](http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Obama/Maps/Mar28.html). This shows McCain winning, 301-228, but it has some strange results, like McCain winning New Jersey but barely winning Texas, and Obama barely winning Massachusetts and Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/420 "2008-03-28T22:03:51Z")
Here’s the deal for all of those who are Hillary supporters. I know you really want your gal to win, and you all-of-a-sudden have a great deal of concern about Michigan and Florida. Let me just state right here and now, Hillary won’t win even with those states. You criticize Barack for being unable to unify his party blah blah blah. The simple reason is that Barack has been playing by the rules the entire time and has no responsibility to injure himself in any way. His is a waiting game, and he’ll wait it out until Hillary goes away. Hillary hasn’t been playing by the rules, and has been trying to make them up as she goes along. Notice how Hillary is pulling bullshit tactics in the TX caucuses now to snatch up some more delegates. Of course there are the real rules, which in essence say that you can literally do anything, but luckily Obama is in the driver’s seat now. He is in control of the party, and he will get his way. Sorry that it sucks to be a Hillary supporter these days, but she has no chance. How can you not see that? Here’s what we mean about bowing out graciously. John Edwards knew he had very little chance at doing anything. But he dropped out before Super Tuesday. He wouldn’t have won, but he could have kept going. We can all sit around here and argue until our faces turn blue, but the obvious fact of the matter is that Hillary is not going to win, and even if you want to entertain the idea that she will, you have to realize that her chances are very small. That’s why **ElvisL1ves** refuses to spell out how he envisions Hillary winning this thing. It’s because he can’t. Hillary’s chances are boiled down to hoping that Barack Obama gets in a plane crash or struck by lightening. It’s really all that’s left. Funnily enough, a judge in Michigan ruled the contest results invalid the other day. But that’s not what’s going to happen. What WILL happen is that Obama will lose PA, Lose KY, and lose WV, while winning NC and maybe IN. He’ll be up by 100 or so delegates and at least 500k in the popular vote. There is just no way that anyone can argue that Hillary should be the nomination after that turn of events. Especially not considering that her negatives are HIGHER than his. How can you logically think that she’d be better for us as a party? I hear a lot of arguing about the rules from DrDeth and ElvisL1ves, but I’ve yet to hear why it is worth it to elect Hillary when it is such an uphill battle for her. I’m not against waiting until all the votes are cast. I’m against Hillary’s BS campaign tactics. She has disrespected the process at every single point. Initially she was inevitable and making fun of the other candidates, then she started calling other states irrelevant. She has insulted all of Obama’s constituents saying that they don’t “Need a president” saying that they get to choose one as a luxury. She doesn’t deserve a single vote, based on how she treats the electorate. She has run a terrible, Rovian campaign from start to finish, when we as a party want no more of that ever again. She’s a beast from within who is essentially of the same cloth as Bush. She’ll do anything she can get away with. But nobody can seem to say why it will be worth going against the popular vote, and pledged delegate victor. Nobody can seem to say why it will be worth it even when 30 percent of the country will consider it illegitimate. Here’s how it plays out. Obama clinches the nomination sometime after NC, probably. When he gets to Denver he seats MI anyway. Then what are Hillary supporters to say? What is their reason for not supporting Obama. He would then be legitimate in every single possible way. It would be childish and sour grapes to not vote for him. On the other hand if Hillary is given the nomination by superdelegates, then it will truly be a shame. Obama supporters will have a right to be pissed. So that’s why Obama supporters are pissed. Obama is getting killed by Hillary’s smears every single day when Hillary has only a very tiny chance, and even if she did win she’d destroy the party by every single conceivable measure. Now if you don’t see it that way, just tell me how you do see it ending differently with Hillary being the nominee. And don’t throw in Florida and Michigan, because Obama will seat them. ETA: forgot to add another nice one… Hillary’s billionaire friends just essentially told Pelosi that “If we don’t have it our way we’re taking our ball and going home” Very classy move. Let them go, is what I say. I’d much rather have them outside of the system than in it corrupting people. Is this a good example of how government will work under Hillary? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=22)