# Fork Hillary 3: The Final Forking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726 "2008-03-18T00:01:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/441 "2008-03-29T15:30:10Z")
Oh my goodness, she really _must_ be forked! **Bob** isn’t Eeyoring doom and gloom! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/442 "2008-03-29T15:31:39Z")
[QUOTE=Santo Rugger] Looks like it’s going to be awhile. [Clinton rules out leaving race early.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080329/ap_on_el_pr/clinton) [/QUOTE] Yeah, and Edwards did too. So did Mitt. SOP. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/443 "2008-03-29T15:34:35Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] Oh my goodness, she really _must_ be forked! **Bob** isn’t Eeyoring doom and gloom! 🙂 [/QUOTE] thanks for noticin’ me. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/444 "2008-03-29T15:50:45Z")
Good job **Bob**. Keep up the good spirits. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/445 "2008-03-29T23:27:36Z")
a) Obama meets his Arthur Bremer b) Obama is literally caught in bed with, say, Rev. Wright That’s it. I can’t blame Sen. Clinton for _formally_ staying in the race - you never know if lightning may strike. But there in nothing to be gained by continuing to fight tooth and claw for a nomination that is, by the numbers, beyond her grasp. In doing so she makes herself look bad. And she may not be doing the Democratic Party much good vis-a-vis the November election, which is what _really_ matters. Does she really want the presidency to go to Sen. McCain if she can’t get it herself? I suppose the deal is that she has wanted this for so long, and so much, that she just can’t feel the tines of the fork poking her. Or she’s been in the oven so long her brain is fried. Twice this past week she has (again) spouted the “Committed Delegates aren’t really committed” nonsense. I don’t think she is _capable_ of quitting. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/446 "2008-03-30T10:19:56Z")
[QUOTE=BJMoose] I don’t think she is _capable_ of quitting. [/QUOTE] [Right you are](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/29/AR2008032901909.html?hpid=topnews): > [@](#): > > A day after Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean urged the candidates to end the race by July 1, Clinton defied that call by declaring that she will take her campaign all the way to the Aug. 25-28 convention if necessary, potentially setting up the prolonged and divisive contest that party leaders are increasingly anxious to avoid. > > “I know there are some people who want to shut this down and I think they are wrong,” Clinton said in an interview during a campaign stop here Saturday. “I have no intention of stopping until we finish what we started and until we see what happens in the next 10 contests and until we resolve Florida and Michigan. And if we don’t resolve it, we’ll resolve it at the convention – that’s what credentials committees are for.” Actually, Senator, Florida and Michigan _are_ resolved: they went with an early primary against party rules, and they suffered the stated penalty. That’s a resolution. Sure, it’s far from the best possible resolution, and it’s not one that anyone should be particularly happy with. But the only sense in which it _isn’t resolved_ is that you don’t like the resolution. If you say you’re doing this for Michigan and Florida, well, that’s bullshit. As soon as you concede, getting MI and FL delegations seated at the convention will be a piece of cake. But now, you know what? Real Democrats don’t want a nominee that’s going to cozy up to Richard Mellon Scaife, whose husband’s legitimized Rush Limbaugh by going on his show, who distributes the hatemongering of the _American Spectator_ that spent most of the 1990s trying to destroy you and your husband. If you’re so desperate to win the Democratic nomination that you’re willing to cozy up to the very people that have fought, tooth and nail, everything that Democrats stand for, then get the fuck out of the way. We don’t want you. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/447 "2008-03-30T12:34:58Z")
[Here’s one thing Hilary supporters can get behind Obama on.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080330/ap_on_el_pr/campaign_rdp) > [@](#): > > “My attitude is Senator Clinton can run as long as she wants,” Obama said. He’s definitely a better man than me. I mean, besides his having balls and all. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/448 "2008-03-30T13:21:18Z")
Well Huckabee at least had an excuse … he majored in miracles, not math. But don’t poli sci majors have to take at least a semester of math classes? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/449 "2008-03-30T13:44:18Z")
Hillary has an excuse too- shell shock from her Bosnian trip. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/450 "2008-03-30T14:19:41Z")
> [@](#): > > “I know there are some people who want to shut this down and I think they are wrong,” Clinton said in an interview during a campaign stop here Saturday. “I have no intention of stopping until we finish what we started and until we see what happens in the next 10 contests and until we resolve Florida and Michigan. And if we don’t resolve it, we’ll resolve it at the convention – that’s what credentials committees are for.” We’re gonna need a bigger fork. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/451 "2008-03-30T15:37:02Z")
Lemme get my manure fork and see if that’ll work. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/452 "2008-03-30T20:17:04Z")
Obama’s now up 52-42 in the Gallup tracker, and 47-42 in the Rasmussen tracker. [Via Josh Marshall](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/186374.php), the makeup of the Credentials Committee at the Dem convention, according to Dem bigfoot Donna Brazile: > [@](#): > > According to Brazile, in addition to the twenty-five members of the Committee appointed by Howard Dean, the rest of the committee will be made up of 3 members apiece from each state. In other words, it works sort of like the senate, where all states are counted equally, regardless of their size. Since Obama has won far more states than Clinton, that should mean he has a decisive majority on the credentials committee. > > One thing Brazile didn’t mention explicitly is just how the individual state delegations choose which delegates to put on the committee. The logic of Brazile’s statement suggests it’s done by majority vote within those delegations. But again, she didn’t say that explicitly. That’s the committee that would decide any contest over who should be seated from FL and MI. I’m not sure what counts as a ‘state,’ but if it’s just the 50 states and DC, minus FL and MI, then so far, if I’m counting correctly, Obama’s won 28 states, Hillary’s won 11, and two are tied, with eight to go. If they cast their nets somewhat wider, Obama’s won the USVI, Clinton’s won American Samoa (guess Duke couldn’t deliver it to Obama!), and Obama is ahead amongst Dems Abroad, with Guam and Puerto Rico still ahead. So if the state delegations choose their three delegates by majority rule, Obama only needs to win NC and maybe one other state/territory to control the credentials committee, even in the unlikely event that Dean’s 25 members are completely in the tank for Hillary. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/453 "2008-03-30T21:31:09Z")
[QUOTE=BJMoose] Does she really want the presidency to go to Sen. McCain if she can’t get it herself? [/QUOTE] Actually, according to one just-barely-plausible formulation, yes, that could be part of it. See, if Obama wins the nomination and then the election, and barring unforeseen calamity, he’ll be the incumbent looking for re-election in 2012. The earliest Clinton could run again, therefore, is 2016, when she’ll be 68 years old. On the other hand, if Obama gets the nomination but loses the general to McCain, Clinton could take another shot in 2012. Thus, it’s in her personal interest to see Obama lose in the general. I don’t know if I’m cynical enough to believe this is part of her calculus, and that she’d be ambitious (and/or bitter) enough to actively torpedo Obama’s campaign. Nevertheless, the reality is, if you think Obama will have a serious shot at the White House if nominated, then either Clinton gets the nomination this time or she never does. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/454 "2008-03-30T22:08:38Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] \*\*Mea Culpa \*\*. And I know full well **Elvis** is not a racist. I should have worded that much differently, I was caught up in a moment. I apologize to **Elvis**. I know he’s not a racist. To put it in the parlance of our times: _ **I reject and denounce my misspeaking to Elvis being a racist. He’s not.** _ [/QUOTE] Good enough. Thanks. There are a number of others here who ought to consider the effects of their own behavior on the credibility of the Obama candidacy as well. To the rest of you yammering about how there’s no possible way Clinton can win, you do know, I trust, that the nomination will be decided by the superdelegates, right? And that they will have their own reasons and their own calculations for making that decision, right? I’m not the only one who has pointed that out here, by far, right? That their public statements of support are no more than that, and can change to reflect changing political reality, right? And that political reality can change significantly and instantaneously, right? We don’t know what other skeletons will pop out of the closet in the next few months, or what other statements will be made, that will affect the supers’ decision, right? We do know that there isn’t anything left to find out about Clinton at least, right? We do know that the disenfranchisement of the voters of Florida and Michigan will continue to rankle there, no matter how many of you want to dismiss the problem, right? The supers’ being political animals, that will have to figure in their calculations, right? As I’ve already stated, it is just silly to assert flatly that they can’t or won’t do a particular thing, right? The rest follows. Now, in the sage words of **RedFury** , “cut the crap!” Sheesh. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/455 "2008-03-30T22:17:28Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] We do know that the disenfranchisement of the voters of Florida and Michigan will continue to rankle there, no matter how many of you want to dismiss the problem, right? [/QUOTE] [You dismissed that very problem not long ago.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9421610&postcount=32) > [@](#): > > Nobody’s been disenfranchised here at all. Anybody who wanted to vote has been completely able to. No candidate was off the ballot, and none’s views have even been unheard by anybody with even the slightest interest. I’m still curious as to what changed your mind. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/456 "2008-03-30T22:31:47Z")
You really do need to represent statements you dislike more responsibly than that, **HW** , if you’re actually serious about this Great Debating stuff. But that has been a critical issue throughout this discussion, and not only for you, of course. The earlier discussion, _as you either know or should know_, was _within the context of the primaries themselves_. No candidate’s supporters were disenfranchised _within that context_. The disenfranchisement has been with the DNC having to follow through with its bluff and refuse to allow those delegates to be seated, a course of action made necessary by the refusal of one of the 2 remaining candidates to engage in constructive leadership to clear up the matter. But then you know or should know that, too. I’ve made \*that \* plain a number of times here as well, too - and with no more notice by you or your fellow haters than \*this \* time is likely to have, either. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/457 "2008-03-30T22:41:57Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] There are a number of others here who ought to consider the effects of their own behavior on the credibility of the Obama candidacy as well. [/quote] Ditto Clinton’s supporters in this thread and the cred of the Clinton candidacy, in the unlikely event that this point has any validity whatsoever. (I believe it doesn’t, and the equivalence holds vacuously. But it holds either way.) > [@](#): > > To the rest of you yammering about how there’s no possible way Clinton can win, you do know, I trust, that the nomination will be decided by the superdelegates, right? And that they will have their own reasons and their own calculations for making that decision, right? I’m not the only one who has pointed that out here, by far, right? That their public statements of support are no more than that, and can change to reflect changing political reality, right? And that political reality can change significantly and instantaneously, right? > > We don’t know what other skeletons will pop out of the closet in the next few months, or what other statements will be made, that will affect the supers’ decision, right? IOW, that’s what the Hillary camp is hanging its hopes on: the distant hope of some piece of bad news that destroys Obama politically. If you want to defend her chances by comparing Team Hillary with a flock of vultures hoping for roadkill, be my guest. > [@](#): > > We do know that there isn’t anything left to find out about Clinton at least, right? I think we pretty much disproved that over the past few weeks. Does Bosnia and sniper fire ring any bells? > [@](#): > > We do know that the disenfranchisement of the voters of Florida and Michigan will continue to rankle there, no matter how many of you want to dismiss the problem, right? If anyone’s keeping that alive, it’s Hillary. She’s claiming that bruise on your shin is because Obama kicked you, and she daily taps it with a mallet just to check on its condition. > [@](#): > > The supers’ being political animals, that will have to figure in their calculations, right? As I’ve already stated, it is just silly to assert flatly that they can’t or won’t do a particular thing, right? I will assert flatly that they won’t do anything that makes it look to a significant percentage of blacks that the party organization is stealing the nomination from a black man. Like you say, they’re political animals. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/458 "2008-03-30T22:42:22Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] You really do need to represent statements you dislike more responsibly than that, **HW** , if you’re actually serious about this Great Debating stuff. But that has been a critical issue throughout this discussion, and not only for you, of course. [/quote] You’re no good at taking the high ground. Best to avoid it. > [@](#): > > The earlier discussion, _as you either know or should know_, was _within the context of the primaries themselves_. No candidate’s supporters were disenfranchised _within that context_. Yep. And you were wrong there. Not only that, but you were, at least as I remember it, arguing against the revote saying that the delegates would be seated when the candidate was decided. > [@](#): > > Come on, now, people -\*\* is there any doubt that all “missing” delegates, on either side, will be restored once the nominees are decided?\*\* Is there any possibility of leaving empty seats, even only figuratively, at the quadrennial festivals of unity and determination, right in the middle of a media promotion event? Don’t be absurd. Of course not. Bolding mine. You had no problem with the delegates being seated after the race was over. Last I checked, the candidate hasn’t been decided yet. What’s your hurry? > [@](#): > > The disenfranchisement has been with the DNC having to follow through with its bluff and refuse to allow those delegates to be seated, a course of action made necessary by the refusal of one of the 2 remaining candidates to engage in constructive leadership to clear up the matter. But then you know or should know that, too. What bluff? Seems pretty clear at this point that there was no bluff. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/459 "2008-03-31T02:01:41Z")
Politico has a story about [Hillary the deadbeat](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9259.html). Apparently her campaign’s keeping its head above water by stiffing a whole bunch of small businesses in earlier primary states: > [@](#): > > Hillary Rodham Clinton’s cash-strapped presidential campaign has been putting off paying hundreds of bills for months — freeing up cash for critical media buys but also earning the campaign a reputation as something of a deadbeat in some small-business circles. > > A pair of Ohio companies owed more than $25,000 by Clinton for staging events for her campaign are warning others in the tight-knit event production community — and anyone else who will listen — to get their cash upfront when doing business with her. Her campaign, say representatives of the two companies, has stopped returning phone calls and e-mails seeking payment of outstanding invoices. One even got no response from a certified letter. > > Their cautionary tales, combined with published reports about similar difficulties faced by a New Hampshire landlord, an Iowa office cleaner and a New York caterer… Apparently practically all of Hillary’s cash-on-hand is money contributed to the fall campaign. At the end of February, she had only $1M to spend on the primaries, and $8.7 million in unpaid bills. And while more than half of that was owed to people like Mark Penn, a great deal of it was owed to small businesses and individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/460 "2008-03-31T02:11:34Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Politico has a story about [Hillary the deadbeat](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9259.html). Apparently her campaign’s keeping its head above water by stiffing a whole bunch of small businesses in earlier primary states: Apparently practically all of Hillary’s cash-on-hand is money contributed to the fall campaign. At the end of February, she had only $1M to spend on the primaries, and $8.7 million in unpaid bills. And while more than half of that was owed to people like Mark Penn, a great deal of it was owed to small businesses and individuals. [/QUOTE] There you go. Hillary needs to drop out to save the economy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=24)