# Fork Hillary 3: The Final Forking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726 "2008-03-18T00:01:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/461 "2008-03-31T02:42:44Z")
That’s the kind of fiscal responsibility that a CiC needs. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/462 "2008-03-31T02:48:27Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] See, if Obama wins the nomination and then the election, and barring unforeseen calamity, he’ll be the incumbent looking for re-election in 2012. The earliest Clinton could run again, therefore, is 2016, when she’ll be 68 years old. On the other hand, if Obama gets the nomination but loses the general to McCain, Clinton could take another shot in 2012. Thus, it’s in her personal interest to see Obama lose in the general. I don’t know if I’m cynical enough to believe this is part of her calculus, and that she’d be ambitious (and/or bitter) enough to actively torpedo Obama’s campaign. [/QUOTE] It doesn’t have to be “active” sabotage. Staying on attack till the convention and then offering lukewarm support to Obama afterwards may be enough to do the trick. To [quote myself] ([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9616935&postcount=327](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9616935&postcount=327)) from a few pages back in this thread: > [@Jackmannii](#): > > At some point you wonder how much of (her persistence in the race) is the delicate balancing act that Clinton must perform to keep her hopes of ever being elected President alive. Too much grinding negativity and sabotage, and her party won’t forgive her. Not enough, and Obama wins in November, permanently torching her ambition to be Prez (if it doesn’t happen now or in four years, it will realistically never happen). > > If Obama does hold on and takes the nomination, it’ll be interesting to see how little support the Clintonistas can get away with. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/463 "2008-03-31T03:23:15Z")
**Elvis** , I appreciate that you have at least finally answered the question of how you see Clinton getting the nomination: some unknown and very bad skeleton is unearthed in Obama’s closet which makes him so unelectable that the supers (and perhaps the pledged delegates) go over to Clinton. And that is not an impossibility even given how little lasting impact Wrightgate had. And you believe that such a possibility is worth Clinton staying in the race no matter what. No matter how much harm such may cause to the party overall at some hypothetical point. Fair 'nuff. Except. and If she, say “suspended her campaign” after an insufficient performance in PA, and such news was then unearthed, she could still rise to the occasion. It is for exactly that kind of circumstance that the supers are free and that pledged delegates are not completely pledged but free to vote otherwise under extraordinary circumstances. She has that path open even if she doesn’t try to play out the make Obama lose motiff. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/464 "2008-03-31T04:01:17Z")
I’ve said it many times before, **DSeid**. Congratulations on finally deciding to pay attention instead of hurl invective. **HW** , you could follow that example too (yes, _once the nomination’s decided_, there undoubtedly will be FL and MI delegates seated - now go back and read more carefully, willya?). As to why she should stay in, even discounting the possibiility of something happening as you so desperately hope, scroll look at the Rasmussen poll numbers I \*also \* previously posted. Do pause for a moment, then, and reconsider your continued assertion that her campaign is about “making Obama lose”, as if he is simple unable to do so on his own. Not everything bad that happens to him is her fault, ya know. > [@RTF](#): > > I will assert flatly that they won’t do anything that makes it look to a significant percentage of blacks that the party organization is stealing the nomination from a black man. > > Like you say, they’re political animals. And that is why they just might notice that there are still more whites than blacks by far, especially the lower-income ones who are most heavily attracted to Clinton, that there are about as many Hispanics, also heavily attracted to Clinton (and a faster-growing group as well), and that they are both far more at risk of going Republican instead, and that beating McCain is going to take more than just not being Republicans themselves. As political animals, wouldn’t you expect their decision to be based on winning in November? Yes, it’s a cold business at times - if you want to win, and if you don’t win, so what anyway? You may wish to be more careful than that about making assertions “flatly” - that does have a tendency to rebound later on. We now return you to the daily Two Minutes Hate, already in progress … ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/465 "2008-03-31T05:11:25Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] We now return you to the daily Two Minutes Hate, already in progress … [/QUOTE] And who do you suppose is responsible for that, **Elvis**? Given that most of the hate for her around these parts is coming from people on her own side of the fence politically, I have a hard time thinking that it’s the _Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy™_ that has managed to convince so many people around here to join in condemnation of her. I submit that she has no one to blame but herself for the way people feel about her. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/466 "2008-03-31T05:41:52Z")
[New Backing for Obama As Party Seeks Unity](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120692054573175525.html?mod=hps_us_whats_news) > [@](#): > > _March 31, 2008_ > > WASHINGTON – Slowly but steadily, a string of Democratic Party figures is taking Barack Obama’s side in the presidential nominating race and raising the pressure on Hillary Clinton to give up. > > Sen. Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota is expected to endorse Sen. Obama Monday, according to a Democrat familiar with her plans. Meanwhile, North Carolina’s seven Democratic House members are poised to endorse Sen. Obama as a group – just one has so far – before that state’s May 6 primary, several Democrats say. > > . . . ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/467 "2008-03-31T09:19:21Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] And that is why they just might notice that there are still more whites than blacks by far [/quote] Boy, you’re really working hard at missing my point, aren’t you? The key word in what I said was ‘stealing.’ Blacks have voted for a lot of white Dems over the years, and I have little doubt that a lot of whites will vote for this particular black Dem. Where that happy cooperation would break down is if one group had reason to believe the nomination was **stolen** from their guy. Particularly if this was going to be their breakthrough moment in national politics, where one of their group had overcome a long history of discrimination to win the big prize. > [@](#): > > You may wish to be more careful than that about making assertions “flatly” - that does have a tendency to rebound later on. I stand by my assertion. > [@](#): > > We now return you to the daily Two Minutes Hate, already in progress … Ah, the spirit of GD, at its best: insult your opponents as a group. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/468 "2008-03-31T12:02:46Z")
[QUOTE=Starving Artist] And who do you suppose is responsible for that, **Elvis**? [/QUOTE] Duh. That nasty upstart Obama and his massive army of zombie Obamanites, of course! Geez… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/469 "2008-03-31T12:15:26Z")
[QUOTE=Starving Artist] Given that most of the hate for her around these parts is coming from people on her own side of the fence politically, I have a hard time thinking that it’s the _Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy™_ that has managed to convince so many people around here to join in condemnation of her. I submit that she has no one to blame but herself for the way people feel about her. [/QUOTE] I agree. Going into the campaign, my preferred candidate was Edwards but I could have lived with Hillary had she ever renounced and apologized for her Iraq vote. Still, I could have held my nose and voted for her had she been the nominee. It was only when she fell behind and went negative that I began to actively dislike her. When Operation Kitchen Sink went into operation for Ohio and Texas, dislike turned to utter contempt and now she makes Cheney seem like a teddy bear. I sincerely hope her and Bill disappear from the national stage forever when she drops out. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/470 "2008-03-31T12:30:55Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] … scroll look at the Rasmussen poll numbers I \*also \* previously posted … [/QUOTE] And, if you would kindly scroll and look and had pointed out that I had actually cited those [Rasmussen](http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/daily_presidential_tracking_polling_history) numbers to you. As you can see she is back down to 42% and he is back up to 47-48% … So I really do not get your point here. Nor did you respond mine: if that something happened (the pictures of him doing lines with Osama or some such) then nominating Hillary would still occur even if she had “suspended her campaign”. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/471 "2008-03-31T13:07:09Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] I agree. Going into the campaign, my preferred candidate was Edwards but I could have lived with Hillary had she ever renounced and apologized for her Iraq vote. [/QUOTE] Hell, I could have lived with Hillary even without that; for a couple of months in there, she, not Obama, was my second choice after Edwards. I figured that by 2009, global warming and domestic issues would be the front-burner concerns, and the reality of Iraq would force anyone who hadn’t drunk the Kool-Aid into similar paths. And even now, I prefer Hillary’s UHC plan to Obama’s pseudo-UHC plan. > [@](#): > > It was only when she fell behind and went negative that I began to actively dislike her. For me, it was a number of things. Too many surrogates toying with the race card during the NH through FL period for it to be coincidence, IMHO. The realization that not only did Patti Solis Doyle fuck up Hillary’s campaign through Super Tuesday, but that she was given the opportunity to do so after having made a mess of the finances of Hillary’s 2006 Senate run. (Hillary was all but unopposed in 2006, and should have been able to transfer a huge pot of money from her Senate campaign to her Presidential campaign. But Solis Doyle spent far more money than she had any business doing, resulting in Hillary’s only being able to transfer a small pile of money over. And this is who Hillary put in charge of her Presidential campaign. Ready on Day One, my ass.) And there was the long string of states that Didn’t Matter, as Team Hillary told us repeatedly. You just _don’t_ go around dissing most of the electorate. > [@](#): > > now she makes Cheney seem like a teddy bear. That’s an illusion. Hillary may drown the occasional kitten; Cheney just bites their heads off. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/472 "2008-03-31T13:24:50Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] And even now, I prefer Hillary’s UHC plan to Obama’s pseudo-UHC plan. [/QUOTE] I think Hillary is letting the ideal get in the way of the possible. If UHC for everyone isn’t politically possible, then I’d rather shoot for Obama’s position of making it available but not mandatory. The trouble is, Hillary’s name is so closely associated with her disasterous attempt at health care in the 1990s that Republican opposition to whatever she proposes is virtually assured. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/473 "2008-03-31T16:20:43Z")
[Obama has double digit lead nationally](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/31/poll-obama-has-double-digit-lead-nationally/) > [@](#): > > Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama extended his lead nationally over Sen. Hillary Clinton Monday according to the latest national polls. > > The Gallup Poll conducted March 27-29 with a margin of error of 3 percentage points shows the Illinois Senator has a 10 percent lead over the New York Senator among Democrats, marking the first time since early February Gallup polls have shown either candidate with a double digit lead. In February, Gallup showed Clinton held an 11 percent advantage over Obama. > > . . . He has managed a 21 pt. swing in under 2 months. Incredible. And this is even _after_ the ridiculously irrelevant Wright “controversy”. And it is now official, [Senator Amy Klobuchar Endorses Barack Obama](http://pressmediawire.com/article.cfm?articleID=18566) > [@](#): > > . . . “I am endorsing Barack because he is a new kind of leader - speaking with a different voice, bringing a new perspective and inspiring a real excitement from the American people. He is able to dissolve the hard cynical edge that has dominated our politics under the Bush Administration. I believe Barack can unify the American people to address the many challenges facing our nation.” > > . . . > > Senator Klobuchar added, “My endorsement reflects both Barack’s strong support in my state and my own independent judgment about his abilities. During our time together in the Senate, we have worked together for change, from ethics reform to protecting our children from toxic toys. Barack has been a proven agent for change and advocate for middle class Americans.” > > . . . ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/474 "2008-03-31T16:37:46Z")
[QUOTE=Starving Artist] I submit that she has no one to blame but herself for the way people feel about her. [/QUOTE] This is absolutely true. Early in the campaign, I knew I was an Obama supporter, but I also felt that Clinton was someone I could rally behind. This changed. The way she has run her campaign has just been appalling. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/475 "2008-03-31T17:21:57Z")
+1 ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/476 "2008-03-31T17:36:45Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] And even now, I prefer Hillary’s UHC plan to Obama’s pseudo-UHC plan. [/quote] I like her plan as well and am all for UHC but, for as much faith as I have of her getting it past a Republican filibuster, it may as well be the _2009 Buy Jophiel A Unicorn Act_. > [@](#): > > And there was the long string of states that Didn’t Matter, as Team Hillary told us repeatedly. You just _don’t_ go around dissing most of the electorate. I was more turned off by when she insulted my intelligence directly. Once with her asinine “Gee, I’m too busy to release my taxes!” bullshit and again with her “Get real!” remark to Obama’s supporters (along with the “waiting for a celestial choir…” remark). If you think I’m too stupid and brainwashed to make an intelligent voting choice, Hillary, then you sure as hell don’t need me voting for _you_. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/477 "2008-03-31T18:12:40Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] We now return you to the daily Two Minutes Hate, already in progress … [/QUOTE] In Orwellian terms, the fight for the Dem nomination is descending into Perpetual War. Looks like Oceania and Eastasia will be [battling it out](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/TheNote/story?id=3105288&page=1) through the convention. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/478 "2008-03-31T19:19:28Z")
[QUOTE=Jophiel] I like her plan as well and am all for UHC but, for as much faith as I have of her getting it past a Republican filibuster, it may as well be the _2009 Buy Jophiel A Unicorn Act_. [/quote] True dat. My hopes are more set on 2011 than 2009, and who knows whether the differences between their positions in 2008 make a difference then. > [@](#): > > I was more turned off by when she insulted my intelligence directly. Once with her asinine “Gee, I’m too busy to release my taxes!” bullshit Indeed. Like she doesn’t know _we_ know she has staff to deal with shit like this? How long does it take her secretary to call her accountant, get the returns, scan them, and send the PDFs to the person managing their website? Sheesh. > [@](#): > > and again with her “Get real!” remark to Obama’s supporters (along with the “waiting for a celestial choir…” remark). If you think I’m too stupid and brainwashed to make an intelligent voting choice, Hillary, then you sure as hell don’t need me voting for _you_. My sentiments as well. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/479 "2008-03-31T19:57:55Z")
From [The Politico](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9272_Page2.html): > [@](#): > > Describing the mood in Washington, a top Democratic strategist who supports Clinton said: “There’s a little bit of a deathwatch going on. Instead of, ‘Who’s going to win?’ the chatter is, ‘How’s it going to unfold?’” > > The strategist added: “There is general panic among Democrats. The big question is: Does she walk to the door, or is she shown to the door?” And **Elvis** , this might interest you: > [@](#): > > they see few scenarios in which she can finish the primary calendar ahead in elected delegates or the popular vote. By this logic, denying the favored candidate of African-Americans — the party’s most loyal constituency — if Obama is ahead could rupture the party. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/480 "2008-03-31T20:15:45Z")
Hey, maybe that celestial chorus is what Hillary figures will win her the nomination? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=25)