# Fork Hillary 3: The Final Forking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726 "2008-03-18T00:01:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/481 "2008-03-31T20:34:01Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] **HW** , you could follow that example too (yes, _once the nomination’s decided_, there undoubtedly will be FL and MI delegates seated - now go back and read more carefully, willya?). [/QUOTE] You seem to be missing my point. I’m simply wondering when the revotes became such an important issue for you. Before you seemed to be patient enough to wait until the candidate was chosen. Now you’re all upset about Obama disenfranchising voters by standing in the way of a new primary. What changed your mind? Why now are you unwilling to wait for the democratic candidate to be chosen before seeing Michigan’s and Florida’s delegates seated? ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/482 "2008-03-31T21:28:04Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] From [The Politico](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9272_Page2.html): And **Elvis** , this might interest you: [/QUOTE] How did I know you were going to get to that before I did?? 😃 That’s the general feel from out here too. The CT Obama guys I work with just got back from PA and they said there was an interesting buzz going about the reporters out there over the weekend. I’m excited to see it happen…the unfolding. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/483 "2008-03-31T21:59:09Z")
Salon’s Deathwatch currently lists Hilary at 9.7% chance of survival. (The started at, in their words, a “generous” 12% but have dropped it down due to Casey and Klobuchar’s nominations and Obama’s continued rise in the polls.) > **[The Hillary Clinton Deathwatch.](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2008/03/the-hillary-deathwatch.html)** > > UPDATE: Clinton's chances of winning have already gone up 0.2 percent since we wrote this. Click here for the latest Deathwatch odds. After rooting for Gore and Kerry, I’m officially not wearing my Obama button in order to avoid jinxing him. These last four years were my fault. Sorry everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/484 "2008-03-31T22:11:27Z")
[QUOTE=Merneith] Salon’s Deathwatch currently lists Hilary at 9.7% chance of survival. (The started at, in their words, a “generous” 12% but have dropped it down due to Casey and Klobuchar’s nominations and Obama’s continued rise in the polls.) > **[The Hillary Clinton Deathwatch.](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2008/03/the-hillary-deathwatch.html)** > > UPDATE: Clinton's chances of winning have already gone up 0.2 percent since we wrote this. Click here for the latest Deathwatch odds. After rooting for Gore and Kerry, I’m officially not wearing my Obama button in order to avoid jinxing him. These last four years were my fault. Sorry everyone. [/QUOTE] Don’t worry, go ahead and wear it. I’ve got mine and it’s worn with pride. Whats wrong with backing a winner? Nice for a change. I had the elderly chap I know who does odd jobs and runs a little ingraving business out of his basement make me a pin. He had a ball - it’s a home made Obama pin..no way I’m not going to wear it. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/485 "2008-03-31T22:52:21Z")
I’ve still got my Kennedy '80 pin and my re-elect Carter frisbee. Neither one worked any magic. Maybe I should get a McCain '08 bumper sticker. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/486 "2008-03-31T23:22:10Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] I’ve still got my Kennedy '80 pin and my re-elect Carter frisbee. Neither one worked any magic. Maybe I should get a McCain '08 bumper sticker. [/QUOTE] I’ve still got a few McGovern '72 bumper stickers, in an appealing shade of blue for that real loser cachet. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/487 "2008-03-31T23:46:14Z")
[QUOTE=Starving Artist] I submit that she has no one to blame but herself for the way people feel about her. [/QUOTE] Ri-i-i-ght … all this hatefest is \*her \* fault for being the kind of person you people just simply hate. Sort of like the excuses we kept hearing from people exposed as having swallowed some of the many lies about Bill Clinton that it was his fault for being the kind of person that lies would be told about. Amazing how one doesn’t always have to be responsible for one’s own conduct , isn’t it? It’s so much easier, and more fun, to blame somebody else for making you do it, especially when others around you are doing the same thing. I know you’re having fun watching Democrats do the same shit that we’ve seen for the last 16 years from your side, but it isn’t doing the country any good to encourage it this way. **jackmanii** , I trust you’re aware of the principle of campaigning that a candidate cannot admit or appear to be doing less than the absolute utmost to win, right? It’s not to be taken at face value; it’s a pep talk for the supporters. So why do you take it at face value from Clinton? What’s different in her case? **RTF** , “stealing” is in the eye of the beholder, right? Is there any actual evidence you can point to of the massive civil unrest in the black community that would follow if the wife of the First Black President were to be nominated? You’re projecting, it appears. BTW, and FTR, is it “stealing” if Obama gets more delegates in Texas despite Clinton winning the popular vote there? Compare and contrast. And please do keep citing Politico; it’s always good for a laugh, although The Onion is consistently better. **HW** , if you can’t be bothered to read for yourself, I’m not spoonfeeding it to you. Gaw_damm_, son … :rolleyes: You’re worse than **DSeid**. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/488 "2008-04-01T00:03:21Z")
[From Kos:](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/31/8449/23311/960/487194) > [@](#): > > I’m not going to accuse anyone screaming at Hillary Clinton to get out of the race of smoking crack because that would be mean and maybe even untrue. But they’re smoking something. Good gracious, Gertie. > … > > So I say Hillary has the best of all reasons to keep running through the primary season (yes, it is a DNC-sanctioned season, with **a start and an end** , not some random period of time that stops when some of us get impatient): it’s the presidency…the most awesomest job evuh! > … > > I remember hearing back in '04—and the Very Serious People in Journalismland were adamant about this—that “few people really pay attention to the race until after summer vacation.” If there’s even a shred of truth to that, we can let the primaries play out to their scheduled June conclusion just fine. If Hillary’s chances haven’t risen to at least 50-50 and she stays in anyway, that’s when she’ll have jumped the shark and her support will naturally crumble. Yep, democracy works fine when you let it. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/489 "2008-04-01T00:04:49Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] BTW, and FTR, is it “stealing” if Obama gets more delegates in Texas despite Clinton winning the popular vote there? Compare and contrast. [/QUOTE] She won the primary and she got more delegates than Obama for that, he won the caucus by an even larger margin than she won the primary so he ended up with more delegates. If Texas was something you could “win” you might have a point, but they both earned their delegates fair and square and both have valid reasons to call Texas a win by their camp. As for the rest of your post, well i can honestly say that her actions turned me from a supporter into a hater. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/490 "2008-04-01T00:08:51Z")
So there’s at best some confusion about whether “following the rules” or “following the will of the people” is actually the higher principle, unless it’s just result-driven, huh? Let’s drop the pretense, please. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/491 "2008-04-01T00:25:38Z")
[http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/080331nj1.htm](http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/080331nj1.htm) Ever wonder who’s on Team Obama? Nice article about who they are, and what their perspectives are. Good mix. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/492 "2008-04-01T00:33:56Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Ri-i-i-ght … all this hatefest is \*her \* fault for being the kind of person you people just simply hate. [/quote] If you must respond, can you try not to misrepresent what people are saying? **Starving Artist** didn’t say Hillary is the “kind of person” you just hate. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/493 "2008-04-01T00:50:48Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] [http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/080331nj1.htm](http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/080331nj1.htm) Ever wonder who’s on Team Obama? Nice article about who they are, and what their perspectives are. Good mix. [/QUOTE] A team designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Good job Barack. David Plouffe never ceases to amaze me. 40 years old and brilliant, just brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/494 "2008-04-01T01:02:03Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] **HW** , if you can’t be bothered to read for yourself, I’m not spoonfeeding it to you. Gawd_damm_, son … :rolleyes: You’re worse than **DSeid**. [/QUOTE] How repetitive. You get called out on something and rather than answer, you accuse other people of being intellectually lazy and drop in a rolleyes. Since when is actually posting “spoonfeeding.” Guess it doesn’t matter. Just you trying to score points again. When Hillary still stood a chance, Florida and Michigan didn’t matter to you. Now that Hillary’s chances are dwindling, Obama is standing in the way of the people having their say. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/495 "2008-04-01T01:15:34Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] **jackmanii** , I trust you’re aware of the principle of campaigning that a candidate cannot admit or appear to be doing less than the absolute utmost to win, right? [/QUOTE] The principle that’s carved on those stone tablets, uh, wherever they are? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Amazing how one doesn’t always have to be responsible for one’s own conduct , isn’t it? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/496 "2008-04-01T01:22:19Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] **RTF** , “stealing” is in the eye of the beholder, right? Is there any actual evidence you can point to of the massive civil unrest in the black community that would follow if [Hillary] were to be nominated? You’re projecting, it appears. [/quote] Well, no, I could NOT “point to of the massive civil unrest in the black community that would follow if” Hillary **won the nomination despite finishing second in delegates and votes**. You know why? Because I never claimed such a thing would happen. That’s why. Who’s projecting now? You’re just inventing my position for me, then knocking it down. I believe there’s a name for that. > [@](#): > > BTW, and FTR, is it “stealing” if Obama gets more delegates in Texas despite Clinton winning the popular vote there? Compare and contrast. I’ve never had a problem with whether states had primaries or caucuses. I don’t see anything antidemocratic about either one. Texas decided to have one of each. Given the preceding, how can I have a problem with that either? Clinton got more votes in the primary, and got more delegates in the primary. Obama got more votes in the caucus, and got more delegates in the caucus. So what IS the ‘popular vote’ in Texas? Primary votes alone? Caucus votes alone? The sum, weighted average, or other combination of both? Arguments can be made a bunch of different ways. And until that argument’s settled, saying “Clinton [won] the popular vote there” is a debatable statement. You think she did, I think she didn’t, and nobody’s automatically right. > [@](#): > > And please do keep citing Politico; it’s always good for a laugh, although The Onion is consistently better. Why? They got off to a rocky start, but it’s been months since I’ve seen them do something more stupid than any other supposedly respectable media outlet. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/497 "2008-04-01T02:26:13Z")
[Barack Obama gets endorsement of prominent Massachusetts Republican](http://www.necn.com/Boston/Politics/Longtime-Bay-State-Republican-turns-Obamacan/1207015293.html). The link goes to a page with the video of the news segment; a transcript of the segment is below. NECN, a cable news station in the Boston market, reported in the 9:00 news tonight that a significant figure in Massachusetts Republican circles, Tom Trimarco, is backing Obama for President. Trimarco comes from a long-time Republican political family, he’s served in state GOP administrations, most recently as Secretary of Administration and Finance under Mitt Romney, and he’s one of those old-fashioned Republicans in the mold of Elliot Richardson, Frank Sargent, and Endicott Peabody. The reporter who interviewed him, Alison King, is sharp, savvy, not toting any axes in search of a grindstone, and very good at letting the interviewee tell his/her own story. Quick summary: Iraq is a big problem for him; he got hooked first by reading Dreams from My Father; he understands the large philosophical differences between him and Barack; but he sees Obama as someone people like him can work with in mutual respect. > [@](#): > > “Somebody recommended that I read Barack Obama’s book, ‘Dreams From My Father.’ So I went out, bought it and read it and it read like a novel. It was a fascinating story, I was engrossed by it and I was so tremendously impressed by the author.” > > Trimarco is now an official Obamacan - as Republicans for Obama are called. > > King: “You know what the Republican National Committee is quick to come out and say – that Obama has the most liberal voting record in the Senate.” > > Trimarco: “I can’t justify this on philosophical grounds. I’m clearly right of center….and I understand there are going to be many issues that I’ll disagree with him about…But his commitment to change the direction in Iraq and his avowed commitment to change the way we speak to each other and to stop playing out of Karl Rove’s playbook. Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton play out of Karl Rove’s playbook. They differ on policies, I’m not saying they have the same policies, but political philosophies, it’s the same. You have a political enemy, knee cap him, and destroy him. Say whatever it is, tear him down.” > > King: “Now, John McCain promises a new kind of politics.” > > Trimarco: “Yup, and I honestly believe that John McCain will do his best to bring a new style of politics, but that base of his, you see, he opposed the Bush tax cuts – why is he supporting them. He has to appeal to that base, I mean he’s taking any number of positions just to satisfy that base.” > > [snip] > > Trimarco considers himself a moderate Republican – and he has been deeply troubled by the hard right turn he feels many in the GOP have taken. > > Trimarco: “I was a Volpe Republican, I was an Eliot Richardson, Ed Brooke Republican. These people were heroes to me…Frank Sargent, I mean these were great statesmen, good politicians they were good public servants and it was so easy for me.” > > King: “What kind of reception has this gotten from your Republican friends?” > > Trimarco: “Mixed. Very mixed. I mean, you know, when you get involved in politics, it is a team sport. And, I know a lot of my friends can’t believe I’m abandoning the team – or - I’m leaving the team and it’s sort of this blind loyalty that you must have.” > > Trimarco says he is not abandoning the Republican Party – just supporting the candidate who he feels is the best man for the job. Watch the segment; listen to his reasons; and contemplate what this says Obama’s appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/498 "2008-04-01T03:20:09Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] [Barack Obama gets endorsement of prominent Massachusetts Republican](http://www.necn.com/Boston/Politics/Longtime-Bay-State-Republican-turns-Obamacan/1207015293.html). The link goes to a page with the video of the news segment; a transcript of the segment is below. NECN, a cable news station in the Boston market, reported in the 9:00 news tonight that a significant figure in Massachusetts Republican circles, Tom Trimarco, is backing Obama for President. Trimarco comes from a long-time Republican political family, he’s served in state GOP administrations, most recently as Secretary of Administration and Finance under Mitt Romney, and he’s one of those old-fashioned Republicans in the mold of Elliot Richardson, Frank Sargent, and Endicott Peabody. The reporter who interviewed him, Alison King, is sharp, savvy, not toting any axes in search of a grindstone, and very good at letting the interviewee tell his/her own story. Quick summary: Iraq is a big problem for him; he got hooked first by reading Dreams from My Father; he understands the large philosophical differences between him and Barack; but he sees Obama as someone people like him can work with in mutual respect. Watch the segment; listen to his reasons; and contemplate what this says Obama’s appeal. [/QUOTE] Excellent news, and just what I’ve been saying about Barack’s appeal to Republicans who actually like working with him. Thanks for sharing that, **ETF**! ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/499 "2008-04-01T04:03:27Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] Excellent news, and just what I’ve been saying about Barack’s appeal to Republicans who actually like working with him. Thanks for sharing that, **ETF**! [/QUOTE] Well, I just had to! I watched that segment with my jaw flapping. It can’t be said enough: There are decent Republicans out there, decent people who hate what the extremists have done to their party, who will never agree with us liberals on a lot of issues but who want to get past the bickering to seek common ground for dealing with our mutual problems. As **elucidator** is fond of pointing out, we _need_ conservatives of strong principle and good will to act as counterweights to our own excesses. Growing up in Massachusetts, I got to see quite a few of that sort of Republican – Elliot Richardson, for example. They’re good people. I believe Tom Trimarco is an example of how Obama can reach out to them and win them over. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/500 "2008-04-01T10:02:18Z")
Finally, [a political analysis we can all agree with](http://www.espn4.com/) > [@](#): > > Catch all the action LIVE, April 1st at 9PM ET, and vote for your favorite candidate by texting your vote to 040108. (Vote does not apply to residents of Florida or Michigan.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=26)