# Fork Hillary 3: The Final Forking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726 "2008-03-18T00:01:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/541 "2008-04-02T13:29:12Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] My question is why didn’t he also react that way about Imus? [/QUOTE] I already answered this. Hell, you answered it yourself. Imus was a shock jock, but the comment that cost him his job crossed a line. Obama never called him out for anything he might have said previously, even though it may have been controversial or even offensive. It was only the nappy-headed comment that got everyone upset. Similarly, Wright was a hellfire preacher. His sermons throughout his career may have been controversial or even offensive, but nothing that required denouncing. It was only these latest God Damn America rants that crossed a line and forced Obama to call him out. In neither case is anyone insisting (except for the extremists) that being fired or let go makes the ‘offender’ less of a person. Nobody demanded that Imus be separated from his family or executed, and I doubt Obama would claim that Imus is even a bad person. But for some reason, it’s unthinkable that Obama should continue his personal relationship with Wright even though he cut off the professional relationship. Again: Imus had a history of controversial statements. The last one got him fired. Wright had a history of controversial sermons. The last one got him fired. Why didn’t Obama deliver a stirring speech in defense of Imus at the time? Probably because there was nobody calling for him to do so, and who would have expected him to anyway? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/542 "2008-04-02T13:33:28Z")
[QUOTE=Bosstone] Equivocation. You do not know that anything Wright ever said in Obama’s presence before his campaign rises to the level of Imus’s comment, merely that they were ‘controversial’. In fact, when Obama was made aware of those recent comments of Wright’s, he cut professional ties with Wright then said they crossed a line Wright had not crossed when Obama knew him. You can decide Obama is lying if you like, or you can decide Obama cutting professional ties is simply political expediency, but his behavior remains consistent. Imus talked a lot of shit on his radio show, but it was only when he crossed that line that Obama felt the need to speak up. Wright may have talked a lot of shit in the church, but his recent comments crossed a line and that’s when Obama needed to speak up. [/QUOTE] I don’t think it’s that simple. He knew enough of Wright’s controversial remarks to uninvite him from speaking at his presidential announcement but still added him to his campaign staff. When these particular clips got publicity he did not cut him loose immediately and , in the interview I saw, wouldn’t say whether Wright volunteered to leave or whether he was asked to go. If Obama had said “I find the Imus comment insulting and reprehensible but I don’t really know the man and don’t want to judge him based on one comment” I would have found that consistent. Either way, I asked a question and you answered. You don’t see it as hypocritical. I do. I support Obama but realistically I expect any candidate to make some mistakes in juggling everything. This is a minor thing. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/543 "2008-04-02T14:46:33Z")
[QUOTE=Bosstone] I already answered this. Hell, you answered it yourself. Imus was a shock jock, but the comment that cost him his job crossed a line. Obama never called him out for anything he might have said previously, even though it may have been controversial or even offensive. It was only the nappy-headed comment that got everyone upset. Similarly, Wright was a hellfire preacher. His sermons throughout his career may have been controversial or even offensive, but nothing that required denouncing. It was only these latest God Damn America rants that crossed a line and forced Obama to call him out. [/QUOTE] That’s your take on it. I don’t agree. Although Obama denounced those particular comments he did not immediately let Wright go from his campaign and it was never clear that Wright was asked to leave. I watched extended clips of those particular sermons and within the context of the sermon subject matter and the words before and after those clips aren’t nearly as alarming or shocking. Going to that church Obama knew the man and although they didn’t agree on everything he overlooked his controversial remarks and put him on his staff. Interestingly he did decide not to let him speak at his presidential announcement. Obama and his campaign knew before adding Wright to the staff that his rhetoric might be an issue. They were correct. I think Wright left the campaign for political expediency not because Obama disagreed from a moral or ethical point. Otherwise he would have been gone days earlier. > [@](#): > > In neither case is anyone insisting (except for the extremists) that being fired or let go makes the ‘offender’ less of a person. Nobody demanded that Imus be separated from his family or executed, and I doubt Obama would claim that Imus is even a bad person. But for some reason, it’s unthinkable that Obama should continue his personal relationship with Wright even though he cut off the professional relationship. I did a little reading about black liberation theology and although I don’t identify with it I think I understand. Having gone to the church and heard Wright, Obama understood it but at the point of controversy he couldn’t really start explaining it to the general public. I think he handled it well with courage and intelligence. If he made a mistake it may have been to put Wright on his staff at all after anticpating trouble. > [@](#): > > Again: Imus had a history of controversial statements. The last one got him fired. Wright had a history of controversial sermons. The last one got him fired. Why didn’t Obama deliver a stirring speech in defense of Imus at the time? Probably because there was nobody calling for him to do so, and who would have expected him to anyway? Yeah, I’m wondering why you brought it up. I never suggested he defend Imus in any way. We can’t accurately say Wright got fired either can we? My question is why didn’t Obama recognize that one or more over the top comments do not define a person and refrain from calling for Imus to be fired, since technically, it wasn’t his business anyway. I do see your point and it is a valid one. I just think given his experience with Wright he was a little quick to call for Imus to be let go and comparing the two situations it smacks a bit of hypocrisy to me. He was quick to condemn the Imus statement but willing to defend and pardon Wright. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/544 "2008-04-02T14:56:15Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] He was quick to condemn the Imus statement but willing to defend and pardon Wright. [/QUOTE] He also condemned Wright’s statements as well. He specifically said as much. He condemned the statements, but wanted to make it clear he was not condemning the man. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/545 "2008-04-02T15:37:06Z")
We all know how the Republican controlled Florida legislature basically forced the Florida Dems to vote for moving up the election by attaching it to a bill they couldn’t vote against about creatinga paper trail during voting. Ehhhh, [maybe not so much](http://youtube.com/watch?v=rpHuQi17EaE). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/546 "2008-04-02T15:49:57Z")
Nitpick: it’s a sound _bite_, not a sound _byte_. A byte is eight bits, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/547 "2008-04-02T15:59:16Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] We all know how the Republican controlled Florida legislature basically forced the Florida Dems to vote for moving up the election by attaching it to a bill they couldn’t vote against about creatinga paper trail during voting. Ehhhh, [maybe not so much](http://youtube.com/watch?v=rpHuQi17EaE). [/QUOTE] This may very well be part of the evidence that was reviewed in determining whether or not the Florida Democrats really and truly tried to fight the majority, but were railroaded, which, had that contention been supported, would have allowed them to avoid the sanctions. [I posted about this previously](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9606433&postcount=160). > [@](#): > > [DNC Panel: Florida's Primary Is Too Soon - CBS News](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/25/politics/main3204004.shtml) > > . . . > > “I am a person that believes in rules, and believes in procedures, because I don’t believe in chaos,” former U.S. Rep. Karen Thurman, chairwoman of the Florida Democratic Party, said after the vote. “But at the same time, I still believe the rules that were written, and the ones that we highlighted, specifically say that if you put [forth] provable and positive steps, and you can prove that, that in fact, there should be at least an obligation to look at what they can do instead of imposing.” > > But many members of the committee said Florida Democrats **had not proven they did all they could to prevent the date change**. . . Also of interesting note; Hillary mouthpiece, Harold Ickes, was on the Rules Committee that voted to strip Florida (and Michigan) of their delegates. Which, by the way, was a separate issue entirely from the much later agreement that the candidates not campaign in either state. [Cite](http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/16/671358.aspx). On the good news front for Obama, another nice endorsement: [Lee Hamilton Endorses Obama](http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1727145,00.html) > [@](#): > > (INDIANAPOLIS)—Former Indiana Rep. Lee Hamilton is backing Sen. Barack Obama in an endorsement that could boost the presidential hopeful’s national security standing, the Associated Press has learned. > > Hamilton, who during a three-decade House career rose to be chairman of the Foreign Affairs and Intelligence committees, also was vice chairman of the Sept. 11 commission. He planned to announce his endorsement of Obama on Wednesday. > > . . . > > Hamilton is best known as the top Democrat on the panel that investigated the 9/11 terrorist attacks. He also was co-chairman of the Iraq Study Group, a bipartisan commission that assessed U.S. policy in Iraq. > > Although Hamilton is not a Democratic superdelegate, his backing comes on the heels of several high-profile endorsements for Obama. . . > > Hamilton, once mentioned as a possible running mate for Bill Clinton, told the AP he believed Obama was the candidate most likely to unite the country. > > “I begin by asking myself what kind of leadership the country needs at this juncture and I think, for me at least, the answer is that you want a candidate that will try to bring together a country that is very evenly divided, a country in which partisanship has been very sharp and to try to get a candidate who will create a new sense of national unity and will try to transcend the divisions within the country,” he said. > > . . . ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/548 "2008-04-02T16:00:00Z")
Before anyone makes a big deal from the latest [Public Policy Polling result that shows Obama up by 2 in PA](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/pa/pennsylvania_democratic_primary-240.html#polls), I’m gonna call bullshit on that polling outfit. Two weeks earlier, they had Clinton up by 26 in PA. Does anyone really think there’s been anything close to a 28-point swing in the preferences of Pennsylvania Democrats? Me either. Similarly, they recently had Obama going [from up 1 to up 21 in NC in a week](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/nc/north_carolina_democratic_primary-275.html). I think I’d trust ARG before I’d trust PPP. The one thing we _can_ say is that, together with the changes in the Rasmussen and Survey USA polls, it’s clear that the movement in PA is all Obama’s way right now. It’d still be quite the upset if he won PA, though. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/549 "2008-04-02T16:04:21Z")
[QUOTE=appleciders] Point is, she’s _comparing herself to Rocky_. First, pompous, just a bit? Second, _Rocky loses in the end_. That’s what he’s famous for! He’s the hero who loses. Why would anyone in a campaign compare herself to _Rocky_? [/QUOTE] So at first she imagined herself as Rambo and now Rocky. What can you say, she’s got a thing for Sly Stallone. Makes sense, another self-absorbed personality whose time has past but who hasn’t yet realized it. Giving a statue of yourself to a city? Yeah, I can see her doing that too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/550 "2008-04-02T18:02:00Z")
Blue-collar Hillary also got in [a dig](http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/hillary-balboa-clinton-challenges-obama-bowl) at Obama’s lack of bowling skills. It figures - she’s got a lot more experience getting down into the gutter than he does. No matter how often she strikes, though, she’s still a turkey. Spare us, Hillary. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/551 "2008-04-02T18:07:26Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] Blue-collar Hillary also got in [a dig](http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/hillary-balboa-clinton-challenges-obama-bowl) at Obama’s lack of bowling skills. It figures - she’s got a lot more experience getting down into the gutter than he does. No matter how often she strikes, though, she’s still a turkey. Spare us, Hillary. 😛 [/QUOTE] After those puns I think you should strike that post and maybe just split. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/552 "2008-04-02T18:18:53Z")
[Wyoming Governor (and superdelegate) endorses Barack Obama](http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1727268,00.html) > [@](#): > > (CHEYENNE, Wyo.) — Wyoming Gov. Dave Freudenthal, a former Clinton administration appointee, announced Wednesday that he will support Illinois Sen. Barack Obama for the Democratic presidential nomination. > > Freudenthal said he was impressed by the large, enthusiastic crowds that turned out to see Obama when he visited Wyoming ahead of last month’s caucuses. > > “They paid attention and were riveted and reactivated, and trying to be part of an America that’s bigger than just their own self-interest,” Freudenthal told The Associated Press. “And you hope that can work. Because something has got to dig us out of this morass that we’ve gotten into, where it’s sort of gotcha politics.” > > . . . > > When both Obama and Hillary Clinton came to Wyoming, the governor spent time with each. Freudenthal said he had nothing negative to say about Hillary Clinton, but Obama struck him as “incredibly smart” and someone who gives honest answers instead of scripted responses. > > The governor also said Obama gave him an honest answer about putting the Wyoming Range in western Wyoming off-limits to oil and gas drilling, something Freudenthal would like to see the U.S. Senate approve. > > Former President Bill Clinton named Freudenthal U.S. attorney for Wyoming in 1994, a job Freudenthal held until 2001. He was elected governor in 2002 and re-elected in 2006. I wonder if Carville will call him Judas now, too. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/553 "2008-04-02T18:26:57Z")
Of course. Personal loyalty is more important than any other value. Certainly more important than loyalty to your country. Honest opinions about what is best for the country must be suppressed if it conflicts with personal loyalty. So saith the sage Carville. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/554 "2008-04-02T18:48:50Z")
By the numbers at [RealClearPolitics](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_delegate_count.html), there are only 326 remaining uncommitted superdelegates. Hillary would have to get a ridiculously large majority of them to catch Barack. Using current numbers, she would need to convince 229 of them to go with her - 70% of the available superdelegates - to bring her up to his delegate total. Ain’t gonna happen. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/555 "2008-04-02T19:09:50Z")
[QUOTE=Bosstone] He also condemned Wright’s statements as well. He specifically said as much. He condemned the statements, but wanted to make it clear he was not condemning the man. [/QUOTE] Correct. He condemned those specific remarks and Wright left his campaign _eventually_. He wasn’t fired by Obama even though Obama called for Imus to be fired and specifically said if anyone in his campaign said anything like that they’d be let go. It’s a minor side issue anyway and I was only curious about the views of other Obama supporters. Evidently nobody but you even cares to respond. I appreciate your take on it even though I don’t agree. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/556 "2008-04-02T19:29:25Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] Blue-collar Hillary also got in [a dig](http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/hillary-balboa-clinton-challenges-obama-bowl) at Obama’s lack of bowling skills. [/QUOTE] Interesting point about that series of digs: I watched a clip of it on the news, and when she made that crack about the gutter, the reaction wasn’t guffaws; it was scattered gasps and nervous titters. She didn’t get much of a laugh at the “April Fool’s” (Hey! I was just kidding!) ending either, and she had the look on her face, the tightness in her voice, of a comedian who knows the routine is bombing. The same campaign roundup segment showed Obama at a rally speaking warmly of Clinton, stating that the continued race is good for the party, and (without any hint of condescension) repeating what he’s already said, that she should stay in the race as long as she wants. Quite a contrast there, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/557 "2008-04-02T19:41:50Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] It’s a minor side issue anyway and I was only curious about the views of other Obama supporters. [/QUOTE] Obama supporter here. I think Obama has handled the Write flap admirably. I also think he was wrong to call for Imus’s resignation. I think it does show a double standard, but now that he’s been on the other side of such a controversy, and a friend of his was involved, I would like to think he would view the Imus situation differently. Also, I think Obama knew that Imus was more than just a sound bite machine. He had appeared on the program several times before, and I assume they were having (somewhat) serious political discussions. Either way, Obama needs to be ready to address this disparity. I can see it coming up in a debate in the general. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/558 "2008-04-02T20:05:51Z")
Yes I saw that PPP Poll that has Obama up by a couple. A man can dream, right? While I don’t think that it’s likely that Obama will win PA, man it sure would be nice. It’s very good to see Obama doing some retail politics again. I feel that is the main reason he does so well in Iowa in the general. I think he comes off so well in person that it’s so disarming compared to what people say of him. Hopefully we’ll get some of the old-school, Obama coming back from behind business like we saw all throughout the entire process that seems to have been stunted before Texas and Ohio. In the end, all of this retail politicking could be good for Obama. Hopefully it will help him out in the general in PA. Say what you will about McCain, but he hasn’t campaigned nearly as much as Obama has this year. Hell, Obama will probably have been to nearly every state save Alaska and HI. I guess he didn’t go to Arkansas, and maybe he won’t go to MO, but who knows… Good to see that this might not be a depressing three-week wait for a heavy loss. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/559 "2008-04-02T20:34:14Z")
[QUOTE=Pashnish Ewing] Obama supporter here. I think Obama has handled the Write flap admirably. I also think he was wrong to call for Imus’s resignation. I think it does show a double standard, but now that he’s been on the other side of such a controversy, and a friend of his was involved, I would like to think he would view the Imus situation differently. Also, I think Obama knew that Imus was more than just a sound bite machine. He had appeared on the program several times before, and I assume they were having (somewhat) serious political discussions. Either way, Obama needs to be ready to address this disparity. I can see it coming up in a debate in the general. [/QUOTE] And I see no disparity whatsoever. I think there’s a gulf of a difference between railing against perceived injustices committed by one group against another, even using racially charged language, versus lewdly calling a specific group of young ladies a very ugly name based on their specific race. “G-d Damn America” doesn’t even rise to 10 levels below “That’s some nappy-headed hos there. . .” Sorry, not even in the same universe, let alone the same league. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/560 "2008-04-02T20:54:07Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Interesting point about that series of digs: I watched a clip of it on the news, and when she made that crack about the gutter, the reaction wasn’t guffaws; it was scattered gasps and nervous titters. She didn’t get much of a laugh at the “April Fool’s” (Hey! I was just kidding!) ending either, and she had the look on her face, the tightness in her voice, of a comedian who knows the routine is bombing. [/QUOTE] It might have been a lame routine but it _was_ a joke routine. I mention this because my local FOX affiliate’s take last night was “Clinton speaks out about Obama!” with a bite of her saying “Obama needs to get his campaign out of the gutter” and no mention of it being a _joke_ :rolleyes: I know there’s a difference between FOX cable news and the local affiliates. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=29)