# Fork Hillary 3: The Final Forking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726 "2008-03-18T00:01:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/841 "2008-04-17T19:26:37Z")
[QUOTE=Starving Artist] I’m unsure what to make of that, **Shayna**. Do you think Ruckleshaus is endorsing Obama to win the presidency itself or just the Democratic nomination? [/QUOTE] I think his quote is pretty self-explanatory, don’t you? "Barack Obama. . . [is] uniquely qualified to build the broad coalitions needed to address our nation’s challenges.” How will merely getting the Democratic nomination and not the Presidency allow him to do that? It’s a full out endorsement for Obama for President. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/842 "2008-04-17T19:43:55Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] I think his quote is pretty self-explanatory, don’t you? "Barack Obama. . . [is] uniquely qualified to build the broad coalitions needed to address our nation’s challenges.” How will merely getting the Democratic nomination and not the Presidency allow him to do that? It’s a full out endorsement for Obama for President. [/QUOTE] I wonder why he didn’t say so then. The article specifically states that he favors Obama for the Democratic nomination but nowhere is mention of the presidency made. It occurs to me that he may feel somewhat like I do. That he’d prefer a republican for president, but if we are to have a democrat in office anyway he’d prefer it to be Obama because once there he could build coalitions, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/843 "2008-04-17T20:35:53Z")
I don’t get what’s obscure about his statement, but if you want something more concrete, here you go: > [@](#): > > Bill Ruckleshaus, the deputy attorney general who resigned during the “Saturday Night Massacre” at the heighth of President Nixon’s Watergate scandal, has endorsed Barack Obama for president. > > . . . > > “Senator Obama’s integrity and commitment to ethics reform give me confidence that he’s the best candidate to bring transparency to Washington, D.C.” > > . . . > > “Part of our campaign for changing politics in Washington, D.C. includes moving our country past the sort of thinking that divides the country into red states and blue states,” Sen. Obama said. “Our grassroots movement is changing the electoral map, and I’m proud to have the support of William Ruckelshaus.” > > [http://www.howeypolitics.com/2008/04/08/ruckleshaus-endorses-obama/](http://www.howeypolitics.com/2008/04/08/ruckleshaus-endorses-obama/) Hope that clears it up for you. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/844 "2008-04-17T21:22:04Z")
Yeah, that’ll work. Thanks. I guess I’ve just learned with experience to closely parse everything a politician says, and it struck me as odd that he phrased his endorsement so as to specifically endorse Obama for the Democratic nomination without also mentioning the presidency. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/845 "2008-04-17T21:47:41Z")
[QUOTE=Starving Artist] Yeah, that’ll work. Thanks. I guess I’ve just learned with experience to closely parse everything a politician says, and it struck me as odd that he phrased his endorsement so as to specifically endorse Obama for the Democratic nomination without also mentioning the presidency. [/QUOTE] If you haven’t already seen Obama’s thoughtful responses to intelligent questions on a number of substantive issues at the recent “Compassion Forum” held at Messiah College, you should take a look. [Here’s the link](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-xMjZ5Za4E&feature=PlayList&p=4E29887981DD7EDF&index=5) to the first of five YouTube clips capturing what he had to say. You may well come out of watching them with greater comfort in Obama being our next president – perhaps (miracles do happen!) even seeing him as a better choice to address this country’s many problems than McCain, mired as he is in the policies and mindsets of the failed past. There are an amazing number of other Republicans and conservatives (not an identical set) who are taking a good hard look at Obama and choosing to give him their support and their vote. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/846 "2008-04-17T22:14:33Z")
I’ll take a look. Thanks for the link. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/847 "2008-04-18T02:21:33Z")
I watched all five segments, **ETF** , and I have to say first of all that this is a much better way to conduct debates. (Technically, I suppose one could contend they were just separate Q & A sessions, but there really isn’t much back and forth debate in the ones like we had last night either.) Each candidate gets truly good questions and has time to answer them fully, without having to contend with snide remarks from the other candidate, time limits, and/or moderator favortism. Obama is a very likable guy. One also gets the sense that he’s a genuinely good person and one who is truly motivated to try to accomplish good things for the nation in general, as opposed to Hillary who just seems mostly to want to get her hands on the reigns of power. Many of the things I’ve come to like about Arnold Schwarzenegger, I also see in Barack Obama. Both recognize that digging in their heels and refusing to deal with the other side accomplishes nothing. Both also recognize that it’s okay for those on the other side to feel differently than you do and that they are entitled to feel that way. Both appear to have the ability to compromise and work with the other side in order to get things accomplished. And both are charismatic and inspirational people who have the unique ability to rally people behind them in a bipartisan way and get things done. Naturally, I would prefer Schwarzenegger (were he able to run) to Obama, because in spite of their similarities, Schwarzenegger still tilts right and Obama tilts left, and the political philosophies of the right are the ones that resonate with me. Still, like I’ve said here before, if Obama winds up in the White House, I don’t expect to be all that unhappy about it. He’s the first democratic presidential candidate I’ve liked on a personal level since JFK, and like I’ve also said before, I believe that he will moderate some of his liberal views once he’s in office and that the republicans in congress will serve as a moderating influence as well. So in the main, if he’s elected in the fall I won’t exactly be happy about it but I’ll be less unhappy than I’ve been with the election of any Democratic president since JFK. This feeling may change once the nominating process is over and issues actually become the focus, but for now, like I said, I’ll be okay with it if he gets elected. You might also be interested to know, too, **ETF** , about a brief conversation I had a couple of months ago with a young woman I know who is about as staunch a republican as I am. (She’s twenty-one and a friend of one of my nieces’.) She asked me who I was gonna vote for and I said McCain, although I wasn’t really all that crazy about him (as a republican, that is, not as a person). She looked at me with eyes a’ twinkle and said, “I like Obama.” I told her I did, too. She said, “Wow, that’s really cool. I thought I was in for a tongue-lashing for sure.” 😃 She’s still gonna vote for McCain, but it does illustrate how strongly Obama resonates with people across the board. And that, I think, speaks strongly for his ability to rally people behind him and get things done in a bipartisan way, which this country really does need. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/848 "2008-04-18T03:04:47Z")
[QUOTE=Starving Artist] She’s still gonna vote for McCain, but it does illustrate how strongly Obama resonates with people across the board. And that, I think, speaks strongly for his ability to rally people behind him and get things done in a bipartisan way, which this country really does need. [/QUOTE] And I strongly doubt any significant number of Republicans will be feeling comparable resonance with Mrs. Clinton; moreover, I well understand why they don’t–and it’s not simple misogyny for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/849 "2008-04-18T05:06:09Z")
The fact that Republicans/conservatives can disagree with Obama’s policies and philosophy, yet see him as someone they can respect and work productively with is an important part of why I’m for him. The problems we face are staggering and will require a President who “resonates with people across the board” and can get the bulk of Congress working with him rather than against him. Oh, it won’t be puppies and rainbows, of course not! There’ll be plenty of tough fights over the initiatives he’ll offer. But I do see Obama as someone who can get a real sense of “We’re all in this together” percolating through the government and the populace. ETA: By the way, I recommend you read his _Dreams from My Father_ – you’ll come away from it with a deeper appreciation of what a remarkable man he is, and where he comes from. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/850 "2008-04-18T07:04:16Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] ETA: By the way, I recommend you read his _Dreams from My Father_ – you’ll come away from it with a deeper appreciation of what a remarkable man he is, and where he comes from. [/QUOTE] I believe I will as a matter of fact. ::gives **EddyTeddyFreddy** a moment to pick herself up off the floor:: And then I’m gonna read _The Audacity of Hope_. How do ya like them apples? 😃 Seriously, though, it’s really looking like he’s going to be the Democratic nominee and it’s time to start taking him seriously and finding out what he believes and why. I’m looking forward to reading what he has to say. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/851 "2008-04-18T14:31:10Z")
Excellent! You won’t see any justice in the “empty suit” label when you’ve finished them. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/852 "2008-04-18T16:21:06Z")
Good on you, **Starving Artist**. Thanks for keeping an open mind. In the meantime. . . [Long-Time Clinton Ally Robert Reich to Endorse Obama](http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2008/04/heilemann_robert_reich_to_endo.html) > [@](#): > > . . . In the past week alone, [the Obama campaign] has announced the support of congressmen from North Carolina and Indiana; the Utah state party chair; the Oklahoma state party’s chief fundraiser; 25 South Dakota state legislators; the owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers; and, not least, The Boss. Some of these endorsers are super-delegates, and thus of no small consequence to the outcome of the race. Others are simply window-dressing, deployed to create a sense of ineluctable momentum in Obama’s direction. But none have the particular resonance of the endorsement that’s coming — unbeknownst to the campaign — a little later today. > > The endorsement in question is that of Robert Reich, Bill Clinton’s first Secretary of Labor and a friend of both the former president and his wife for four decades. Around 1:00pm EST, Reich informs me, he intends formally to declare his support for Obama on his blog. > > . . . > > As we chatted in Washington, where Reich had come from Berkeley, where he teaches, to give a speech and meet with some Democrats on Capitol Hill, he explained that, despite the criticisms he’s made of the Clintons (“I call it as I see it”), he had planned to refrain from offering an official backing for Obama out of respect for Hillary. “She’s an old friend,” Reich said, “I’ve known her 40 years. I was absolutely dead set against getting into the whole endorsement thing. I’ve struggled with it. I’ve not wanted to do it. Out of loyalty to her, I just felt it would be inappropriate.” > > So what’s changed? I asked Reich. > > “I saw the ads” — the negative man-on-street commercials that the Clinton campaign put up in Pennsylvania in the wake of Obama’s bitter/cling comments a week ago — "and I was appalled, frankly. I thought it represented the nadir of mean-spirited, negative politics. And also of the politics of distraction, of gotcha politics. It’s the worst of all worlds. . . This one’s going to have to sting as much as the Richardson endorsement. Of course the article goes on to say that they’ll just dismiss it with a hand wave, but deep down they cannot _not_ feel personally offended that a 40-year friend has publicly endorsed her rival. And then. . . [Forty Virginia party leaders ask uncommitted superdels to back Obama](http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-04-08-0150.html) > [@](#): > > . . . In a letter to the superdelegates, 40 party leaders from some of the largest localities express fear that the fight between Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton is weakening the party and only helps John McCain, the probable Republican nominee. > > . . . > > In the letter, the county, city and congressional district chairmen urge the unpledged superdelegates to support Obama because primary outcomes – including the Illinois senator’s big win in Virginia in February – augur his nomination. > > . . . > > To bring around neutral superdelegates, Surovell and Arlington County Democratic Chairman Peter Rousselot have launched an online petition: [www.ipetitions.com/petition/VAObamaSuperdelegate1/](http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/VAObamaSuperdelegate1/) > > The letter’s signatories represent roughly a third of Virginia’s Democratic unit leaders. Their jurisdictions generated nearly 51 percent of the Democratic vote in the Feb. 12 presidential primary. Obama defeated Clinton in Virginia 63.5 percent to 35 percent. > > That means among pledged delegates, Obama grabbed 55 of 85. > > “The only way in which Hillary Clinton could secure the Democratic nomination is if you were to overturn the will of both the commonwealth of Virginia’s and the nation’s elected pledged delegates,” the chairmen said. > > They added, “Your role as superdelegates is to lead and show the wisdom and judgment to do what is right for our party. We urge you to act – now. Please lead us out of the party-rending path down which we are headed.” ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/853 "2008-04-18T17:35:23Z")
[OBAMA SCORES BACKING OF TWO SOUTHERN DEMOCRATIC ICONS](http://thepage.time.com/endorsement-statements-of-former-sens-nunn-boren-for-obama-2/) > [@](#): > > Former Senate Armed Services and Intelligence Committee Chairmen Cite Obama’s Ability to Lead on National Security Issues > > Chicago, IL – Today, Former Senators Sam Nunn and David L. Boren endorsed Barack Obama for president, citing his judgment and vision to be Commander and Chief and his ability to strengthen our national security. > > Nunn and Boren have accepted Senator Obama’s invitation to serve as advisers to his National Security Foreign Policy Team. Senator Nunn served for 25 years (1972-1997) in the United States Senate and was Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee from 1987 through 1995. Senator Boren served in the United States Senate from 1979 to 1994 and is the longest-serving Chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. Between them, the two senators bring nearly 60 years of service and experience in elective office. > > . . . > > Former Senator Sam Nunn said, . . . "We need a president who has the temperament of a leader – a sharp, incisive, strategic mind, a rare capacity for self criticism, and a willingness to hear contrary points of view. > > “Based on my conversations with Senator Obama, reading his book and his speeches and seeing the kind of campaign he has run, I believe that he is our best choice to lead our nation. . .” > > . . . > > Former Senator David L. Boren said, . . . "Our most urgent task is to end the divisions in our country, to stop the political bickering, and to unite our talents and efforts. Americans of all persuasions are pleading with our political leaders to bring us together. I believe Senator Obama is sincerely committed to that effort. He has made a non-partisan approach to all issues a top priority. > > “Senator Obama is also a person of sound and good judgment. He had the good judgment more than five years ago to warn against our involvement in this tragic and costly war. He also understands the need to repair our partnerships with other nations and to more effectively use diplomacy to serve our national interests. . .” I think this is going to be another good day. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/854 "2008-04-18T17:37:25Z")
Nunn’s a wash for me. I still haven’t forgiven him for fighting as hard as any Republican against repealing the ban on gays in the military early in Clinton’s first term. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/855 "2008-04-19T15:39:06Z")
[Nebraska Superdelegate endorses Obama](http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2008/04/19/news/local/doc480947d874c6d355011003.prt) > [@](#): > > Democratic State Chairman Steve Achelpohl of Omaha has joined a flurry of superdelegates moving to Sen. Barack Obama’s side. > > In announcing his endorsement, the Obama campaign released a statement from Achelpohl citing the senator’s ability to “put states like Nebraska in play” during the presidential election this fall. > > “Sen. Obama continues to transcend ‘politics as usual’ and focus on the issues that really matter to American families and workers,” Achelpohl said. > > “Our party can unite behind Sen. Obama and his positive campaign.” > > . . . ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/856 "2008-04-19T19:57:40Z")
Her argument to the supers just gets [harder to make.](http://www.newsweek.com/id/132721) > [@](#): > > The survey of 1,209 registered voters found that Obama now leads Clinton by nearly 20 points, or 54 percent to 35 percent, among registered Democrats and those who lean Democratic nationwide. The previous Newsweek poll, conducted in March after Clinton’s big primary wins in Ohio and Texas, showed the two Democrats locked in a statistical tie (45 percent for Obama to 44 percent for Clinton). The new poll puts Obama ahead among women as well as men, and voters aged 60 and older as well as younger voters. (For the complete poll data, click here). > > One of the more devastating results for Clinton was that a majority of all registered voters now see her as dishonest and untrustworthy. That said, I must say that Obama has been off his game. The general may be closer than I’d like. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/857 "2008-04-19T21:18:26Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] OBAMA SCORES BACKING OF TWO SOUTHERN DEMOCRATIC ICONS I think this is going to be another good day. 🙂 [/QUOTE] It \*might \* have been, if not for [Clinton getting _three_](http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/04/clinton_picks_u_2.html). Why is it that you never mention such things? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/858 "2008-04-19T21:24:01Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] It \*might \* have been, if not for [Clinton getting _three_](http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/04/clinton_picks_u_2.html). Why is it that you never mention such things? [/QUOTE] Because it’s not her job to shill for Clinton? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/859 "2008-04-19T21:27:06Z")
This _is_ the forum designated for witnessing, that’s true. Sure would be nice to see it acknowledged as such a little more often, though. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/860 "2008-04-19T21:31:54Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] This _is_ the forum designated for witnessing, that’s true. Sure would be nice to see it acknowledged as such a little more often, though. [/QUOTE] Yeah, because your candidate has so much greater a chance after throwing MoveOn and party activists under a bus this weekend. MoveOn, an organization which was formed in the first place to aid her husband during his impeachment ordeal by advocating a simple censure and “moving on”. Party activists…you know, the people who actually DO THINGS in the party, like GOTV and phonebanking and rallying and campaign volunteering. Those people? Guess they’re just not that important to Mrs. “Lobbyists are people, too” Clinton. Sort of like how all the states that didn’t go her way are “insignificant”. I sure hope Pennsylvania turns out to be insignificant, too. Maybe, like Nebuchadnezzar, she’ll finally see the writing on the wall. Or at least the superdelegates will… Oh, and maybe you can send her a message to pay her bills like the rest of us have to, 'kay? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=44)