# Fork Hillary 3: The Final Forking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726 "2008-03-18T00:01:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 81
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1601 "2008-05-14T13:54:23Z")
[QUOTE=Euphonious Polemic] … “We think we’re going to be the nominee. We’re going to make our case to the superdelegates,” (Howard Wolfson) said. … 1. Just want to raise some money to cover the $10 million debt?.. [/QUOTE] Am I the only one irritated by the “royal we” of campaigns nowadays? How can “we” be “the nominee”? Alas, even Obama’s said it now and then. FWIW, the AP and [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) both routinely describe Hillary’s campaign debt as $20 million. Ouch. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1602 "2008-05-14T13:56:21Z")
It amuses us. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1603 "2008-05-14T14:04:27Z")
[QUOTE=Burton] Stupid? No, but this is what you said " it’s far less likely to be passed on to the next generation. " It is passed on, kids know what their parents feelings are regarding issues like race. It’s really not possible to keep things like that from kids. [/QUOTE] Given the number of people (both here and writing diaries at Daily Kos) who’ve been shocked at the attitudes their parent(s) have expressed about Obama, I’d say it’s quite possible. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1604 "2008-05-14T14:22:13Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Am I the only one irritated by the “royal we” of campaigns nowadays? How can “we” be “the nominee”? Alas, even Obama’s said it now and then. [/QUOTE] Obama says it, to my hearing, much more often than he says “I”. It’s one thing for a campaign staff member to say it, I think that’s fairly normal. It is a team sport, after all. I actually rather like it when the candidate says it, because it acknowledges the work being done by their staff. I am sure that there is some research or sense that it plays better as well. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1605 "2008-05-14T14:45:23Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Am I the only one irritated by the “royal we” of campaigns nowadays? How can “we” be “the nominee”? Alas, even Obama’s said it now and then. [/QUOTE] My guess is that it is editorial, not royal. I suspect that since they are making multiple speeches every single day in which the candidate claims that “we” (all of us who share the same beliefs and desires) are going to triumph in the end, any statement addressed to a group that refers to the nomination or election process is going to come out in the plural. If they are still speaking in the plural when they are having a one-to-one conversation in a formal interview, I would be much more concerned. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1606 "2008-05-14T14:48:18Z")
[QUOTE=stolichnaya] Obama says it, to my hearing, much more often than he says “I”. It’s one thing for a campaign staff member to say it, I think that’s fairly normal. It is a team sport, after all. I actually rather like it when the candidate says it, because it acknowledges the work being done by their staff. I am sure that there is some research or sense that it plays better as well. [/QUOTE] I think in Obama’s case, he’s including US, the citizenry, in his “we”. Which I like, a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1607 "2008-05-14T14:52:03Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] My guess is that it is editorial, not royal. I suspect that since they are making multiple speeches every single day in which the candidate claims that “we” (all of us who share the same beliefs and desires) are going to triumph in the end, any statement addressed to a group that refers to the nomination or election process is going to come out in the plural. If they are still speaking in the plural when they are having a one-to-one conversation in a formal interview, I would be much more concerned. [/QUOTE] Yes, it’s a rhetorical attempt to define the candidate as an entire movement rather than as a single individual. It’s also a way to include “you” in that movement. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1608 "2008-05-14T14:52:49Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] FWIW, the AP and [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) both routinely describe Hillary’s campaign debt as $20 million. Ouch. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I hadn’t noticed that before today. That actually lends a little credence to the theory that she’s trying to get Obama to cover her debt - I hadn’t believed that theory, but the denials from both sides made me wonder, and $20 million or $30 million is a lot to sink into a campaign. They won’t go broke, but I can understand even the Clintons being reluctant to do that. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1609 "2008-05-14T14:53:14Z")
In the early primaries, Obama’s speeches often contained language about what “we” would do, while Hillary’s were more like “vote for me and _I_ will do this”. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1610 "2008-05-14T14:54:31Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] I think in Obama’s case, he’s including US, the citizenry, in his “we”. Which I like, a lot. [/QUOTE] That’s fine, and no objection. Of course a candidate will identify himself or herself as being at the head of a large group of concerned citizens. It’s when the plural clashes with the singular that I’m annoyed: “We’re going to the White House!” - good “We will be the nominee” - bad “We will take back our country and turn the page on the Bush years” - good “When we are President, things are gonna change” - bad “We will clean up the mess in Washington” - good “Once we take the oath of office, the sky’s the limit!” - bad ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1611 "2008-05-14T15:16:08Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Am I the only one irritated by the “royal we” of campaigns nowadays? How can “we” be “the nominee”? Alas, even Obama’s said it now and then. [/QUOTE] The campaign tic that bothers me even more is beginning a response to a question with: “As I’ve said many times…” “I have said…” “Well, I have said before…” Both Obama and Hillary have fallen into this habit. It’s grating because of the subtext, _“You stupid git, haven’t you been listening?”_ Just answer the damn question, and spare us the condescension. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1612 "2008-05-14T15:20:46Z")
I think that may be a bit of a delay tactic that allows you to locate the talking point without saying “um” or “uh”. I guess it has the added bonus of implying consistency or something. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1613 "2008-05-14T15:25:06Z")
[QUOTE=stolichnaya] I think that may be a bit of a delay tactic that allows you to locate the talking point without saying “um” or “uh”. I guess it has the added bonus of implying consistency or something. [/QUOTE] I’m sure you’re right, but it’s still annoying. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1614 "2008-05-14T15:25:59Z")
As I’ve mentioned, I don’t disagree… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1615 "2008-05-14T15:38:06Z")
[QUOTE=stolichnaya] I think that may be a bit of a delay tactic that allows you to locate the talking point without saying “um” or “uh”. I guess it has the added bonus of implying consistency or something. [/QUOTE] I usually take it as a preemptive counter to charges of flip-flopping. You start right off saying, “I have not changed my mind – I’ve been behind this stupidity all along. Changing one’s mind is for wussies.” But either way, still grating. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1616 "2008-05-14T17:05:44Z")
Hillary using “we” You’re doing it wrong… Seriously, it sounds like someone said, you use “I/me” too much, use “we/us” more. So she literally supplanted those words and the grammar sounds dumb because the rest of her sentence wasn’t inclusive to begin with. Vote for me and I will change this country!!! Vot for us and we will change this countrh!!! (What? My name isn’t on the ballot) Where as Obama will talk about us as in, " We can change this countery…" " We have been fighting amongst ourselves for too long…" Someone has hard-coded the us/we thing in the hillary supporter’s brains. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1617 "2008-05-14T17:24:26Z")
Three new endorsements today for Obama: Obama also picked up endorsements today from three former chairmen of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission: Democratic appointee Arthur Levitt and Republican appointees William Donaldson and David Ruder. They said Obama is a leader who can "take us to a stronger and more secure economic future.''[Bloomberg Politics - Bloomberg](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ankKaKOOT1K8&refer=home) ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1618 "2008-05-14T17:39:28Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] In the early primaries, Obama’s speeches often contained language about what “we” would do, while Hillary’s were more like “vote for me and _I_ will do this”. [/QUOTE] Which was highlighted when the Clinton campaign first co-opted Obama’s “Yes we can!” into “Yes SHE can!” Geez, talk about _not_ getting it. I think I heard it in the later primaries as “Yes we WILL”. Better…but still, pretty weak. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1619 "2008-05-14T17:51:06Z")
[QUOTE=Pashnish Ewing] Which was highlighted when the Clinton campaign first co-opted Obama’s “Yes we can!” into “Yes SHE can!” Geez, talk about _not_ getting it. [/QUOTE] “I am the one I’ve been waiting for!” ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726/1620 "2008-05-14T18:11:21Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] “I am the one I’ve been waiting for!” [/QUOTE] Actually I think it should be, “ **I** am the change you are waiting for.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=80) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fork-hillary-3-the-final-forking/441726.md?page=82)