Formal vs Informal In English Language

[Cerowyn]

@Cosmic Relief

As a side note, keigo verbs do not depend on the conditional to achieve politeness; i.e. in Japanese it is not necessary to say “would you like” to express politeness as we must in English. In Japanese it’s adequate to employ the correct verb, which may be expressed in whatever tense is necessary to communicate the meaning. Of course, it’s generally considered polite to add an indirect or counterfactual component, which is well-suited to conditional, but that is more a matter of style rather than protocol or grammar.

While you are 99.9% correct, I can think of a few examples where you completely change the form. To answer Olentzero’s question, “would you like something to drink” is one of the sentences that follows Cosmic Relief’s general rule, although it’s a little trickier, because “would you like” is a different verb ending (nomimasu becomes nomitai).

However, for instance, when introducing yourself for the first time, the more formal way is to say Hajimimashite, Cerowyn to moshimasu. The more casual form is Hajimimashite, watashi-wa Cerowyn desu, or even more casually Hajimimashite, Cerowyn desu.

Hmmm… on second thought, perhaps introductions are a bad example. That’s not keigo – it’s more akin to English’s approach to changing the wording (“Hi, nice to meet you” vs. “Hello, I’m pleased to meet you.”). I’ll think of a better example in a bit.

[HMS_Irruncible]

@Cerowyn

However, for instance, when introducing yourself for the first time, the more formal way is to say Hajimimashite, Cerowyn to moshimasu. The more casual form is Hajimimashite, watashi-wa Cerowyn desu, or even more casually Hajimimashite, Cerowyn desu.

That’s a bit of an apples-and-oranges comparison, though. You’re comparing the keigo way of saying “I’m called Cerowyn” with the casual form of “I’m Cerowyn”. There is a casual way of expressing “I’m called Cerowyn” (to iimasu), though admittedly it’s not as commonly used.

[Hilarity_N.Suze]

Hmmm…let’s say you’re taking Aunt Edna to the store in your car, along with one other person you’ll pick up on the way.

To your very proper mother: “Aunt Edna’s a little gassy, isn’t she?”

To your coworkers: “My aunt suffers a bit from flatulence.”

To your siblings: “Aunt Edna farts like a motherfuck.”

To yourself: “Who died in here?”

[Cerowyn]

@Cosmic Relief

That’s a bit of an apples-and-oranges comparison, though. You’re comparing the keigo way of saying “I’m called Cerowyn” with the casual form of “I’m Cerowyn”. There is a casual way of expressing “I’m called Cerowyn” (to iimasu), though admittedly it’s not as commonly used.

Yeah, literally, they’re not the same. I should have said watashi no namae wa Cerowyn desu, but in reality, you do actually change what you say. (Or, at least, I do, which is by no means reflective of what you should do.) Anyway, I realized that it wasn’t an ideal example after I’d posted it, which is why I added the little comment at the bottom.

More apologies later, when I have time to type 'em out…

[cplif]

I do not know about japanese, but as a native american with a french mother, I would be careful with foreign polite forms.
In french tu, vous are singular and plural forms of “you”; the plural “vous” is used as a “polite” form when respect is required, but also when a (social) distance is desired, as in a contractor-to-client relationship. Though difficult to describe in a few words, the distinction is quite powerful.
I do suppose that in more distant languages the difference and use is quite subtle, and certainly difficult to use.
In english, the formal you (thee, thou, thy) seems to be limited to references to god in religious context.

[Kobal2]

@Turble

Don’t know if they are along the same line or not but Spanish has formal and informal forms.

¿Como esta usted?
¿Como estas tu?

Both translate to English as “How are you?’ The first form is the formal, used when meeting strangers or addressing people such as teachers and doctors, in formal business meetings, etc. The second is used with friends and family.

I learned a little Spanish while living in Mexico for a couple of years. I once made the mistake (after knowing her for several months) of addressing my girlfriend’s mother using the “usted” form and it was a very big deal … seems she thought it meant I didn’t think of her as, uh, “close” or something … she was very upset.

French and German also have an equivalent (tu/vous ; du/Sie), and it does make translating from English somewhat more complicated than it should at times. Do these people know each other enough to use “tu” ? At what point in that budding romance does the “vous” go away" ? Was that a polite “you” or a friendly"you" ? etc…

But I don’t understand how Markxxx could wonder whether English has formal and informal registers. Of course it does. They’re not as dissimilar, complex and codified as Japanese registers, but still : would you tell your friends “Excuse me sir, would you mind bringing me a beverage please ?” ? Of course not.

Now give us a beer, mate.

[unclelem]

English had exactly the same sort of formal and informal forms for "you " as German and the rest of the cited languages. We chucked the informal forms in English a couple hundred years ago. We now use exclusively the formal form, “you”, and the attending verb conjugations.

The informal forms “thou” and “ye”, their inflected forms (“thee”,“thy”, etc), and the attendant verb conjugation (“art”, etc) survive only at renfaires, in archaic documents, and in a few isolated regional dialects.

One is predisposed to use correct grammar rather than colloquialisms, and utilize more grandiloquent vocabulary while speaking in formal situations. However, such speech is not necessarily formal, and might even be considered an affectation by some.

See the wiki entry for “Thou” for one theory of how we lost the informal form.

[Vox_Imperatoris]

Well the English 2nd person formal/informal distinction was always bastardized. It took over from having thou mean “you, just the one” and you meaning “all of you”, which makes a whole lot more sense.

[DrCube]

From Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman, by Richard Feynman:

While in Kyoto I tried to learn Japanese with a vengeance. I worked much harder at it, and got to a point where I could go around in taxis and do things. I took lessons from a Japanese man every day for an hour.
One day he was teaching me the word for “see.”
“All right,” he said. “You want to say, ‘May I see your garden?’ What
do you say?”
I made up a sentence with the word that I had just learned.
“No, no!” he said. “When you say to someone, 'Would you like to see my
garden? you use the first ‘see.’ But when you want to see someone else’s
garden, you must use another ‘see,’ which is more polite.”
“Would you like to glance at my lousy garden?” is essentially what
you’re saying in the first case, but when you want to look at the other
fella’s garden, you have to say something like, “May I observe your gorgeous
garden?” So there’s two different words you have to use.
Then he gave me another one: “You go to a temple, and you want to look
at the gardens…”
I made up a sentence, this time with the polite “see.”
“No, no!” he said. "In the temple, the gardens are much more elegant.
So you have to say something that would be equivalent to ‘May I hang my eyes
on your most exquisite gardens?’
Three or four different words for one idea, because when I’m doing it,
it’s miserable; when you’re doing it, it’s elegant.
I was learning Japanese mainly for technical things, so I decided to
check if this same problem existed among the scientists.
At the institute the next day, I said to the guys in the office, “How
would I say in Japanese, ‘I solve the Dirac Equation’?”
They said such-and-so.
“OK. Now I want to say, ‘Would you solve the Dirac Equation?’ – how do
I say that?”
"Well, you have to use a different word for ‘solve,’ " they say.
“Why?” I protested. “When I solve it, I do the same damn thing as when
you solve it!”
“Well, yes, but it’s a different word – it’s more polite.”
I gave up. I decided that wasn’t the language for me, and stopped
learning Japanese.

Sorry about the terrible formatting, I got the quote from a text file.

[Olentzero]

Stick with physics, Dickie; leave the languages to us polyglots.

[griffin1977]

@Turble

Don’t know if they are along the same line or not but Spanish has formal and informal forms.

¿Como esta usted?
¿Como estas tu?

Both translate to English as “How are you?’

Actually Thou and You are the English equivalents of Tu and Usted (or the other way round, I forget which). When my dad was taught French at school that is the translation he was taught.