# Former MLB pitcher Roy Halladay dies in plane crash **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [November 7, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001 "2017-11-07T22:06:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/21 "2017-11-08T18:22:19Z")
Righto. Too often, a guy who thinks he’s a major leaguer but gets sent down to work on a problem pouts about it instead, gets hopelessly lost and eventually released, and only years too late does he start to wonder what the hell he was thinking. Doc got the point, accepted that his coaches knew their business, and did what he needed to. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/22 "2017-11-08T21:30:12Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Halladay’s being quite fondly remembered in St. Louis because of the classic pitchers’ duel between him and Chris Carpenter in the 2011 NLDS. The two pitchers played together in the minors and were good friends. They played together in the majors, too. In 2003 I saw Roy Halladay give up seven runs in one game and it was one of the finest pitching performances I have ever seen. They were playing the Red Sox in Toronto and the Sox raked him for two in the first and four more in the third; it was 6-0 and appeared over. The crowd was silent and pissed. Most pitchers give up or get yanked at that point. Doc did not. He walked out in the fourth and went back to work, and in the fifth, and in the sixth, and totally put the damage to rest, giving up no runs; they got him for a seventh run in the seventh but by then the Jays had come back, and they won. Doc was the winning pitcher and the box score makes it look like he was lucky. He was not; he deserved that win. No other pitcher in the major leagues would have won that game. He was totally, utterly unflappable. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/23 "2017-11-08T22:59:52Z")
There’s some[video](http://www.tmz.com/2017/11/08/roy-halladay-plane-crash-video-witnesses-showboating/) from water level of Halladay flying his plane just before the crash. It doesn’t show the crash itself, but it does show what some people are describing as hot-dogging behavior in the plane. I’m no light aircraft expert, but h’s certainly getting pretty damn close to the water, and flying what seems to be rather erratic patterns. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/24 "2017-11-09T00:39:25Z")
The A5 is amphibious so being close to the water is not bad in itself. But it doesn’t look to me like a landing attempt. The plane does have some pluses (it is spin proof), but the marketing and broken promises have been problematic at best. Brian ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/25 "2017-11-09T01:37:51Z")
Does this bump up his Hall of Fame eligibility to this year? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/26 "2017-11-09T02:15:07Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Does this bump up his Hall of Fame eligibility to this year? From the rules. > [@](#): > > D. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first. So presumably not for the balloting this year but next year. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/27 "2017-11-09T02:33:21Z")
Which is when he would have become eligible anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/28 "2017-11-09T04:32:43Z")
Isn’t this pretty much exactly what happened to John Denver? I wonder how many no-names die like this in small ultralights. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/29 "2017-11-09T05:28:31Z")
RIP Halladay. Your pitching performance against my Reds in the playoffs is the most masterful I have ever seen. PERIOD. ---
**Author:** ![JHBoom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/13edae/32.png) [@JHBoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JHBoom)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/30 "2017-11-09T05:31:38Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Isn’t this pretty much exactly what happened to John Denver? > > I wonder how many no-names die like this in small ultralights. No. John Denver bought an experimental, amateur-built [Rutan Long-EZ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutan_Long-EZ) with a fuel system that hadn’t been built to plans. The [NTSB report](https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001208X09045&ntsbno=LAX98FA008&akey=1) is an enlightening read. Aviation accident statistics can be found by searching the FAA and NTSB websites. Point of clarification: the Icon A5 is not an ultralight. It is certified by the FAA as a [Light Sport Aircraft](https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/light_sport/), with waivers to get around some of the LSA-category weight & performance restrictions. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/31 "2017-11-09T06:12:20Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > There’s some[video](http://www.tmz.com/2017/11/08/roy-halladay-plane-crash-video-witnesses-showboating/) from water level of Halladay flying his plane just before the crash. It doesn’t show the crash itself, but it does show what some people are describing as hot-dogging behavior in the plane. > > I’m no light aircraft expert, but h’s certainly getting pretty damn close to the water, and flying what seems to be rather erratic patterns. As it is an amphibious aircraft “getting close to the water” is not inherently a problem. They’re _designed_ to get close to water, as in, actually floating on the water. I can’t tell from the video if the flying is really a problem or not, partly due to the poor quality of the video and partly because I just don’t know. Flying low is not always unsafe. It’s an inherent part of practicing approach and landing, which may be done repeatedly over a short span of time (a.k.a “touch ‘n’ goes” or, if you don’t quite land, a “tease ‘n’ go”) The one turn does seem a bit steep but, again, it’s not a terribly informative video. > [@Leaffan](#): > > Isn’t this pretty much exactly what happened to John Denver? No. More in a bit. > [@](#): > > I wonder how many no-names die like this in small ultralights. Ultralights and experimental homebuilt airplanes do have a higher rate of accidents and death than conventional aviation. Have’t looked at the stats in awhile, but when I was doing it the rate was comparable to motorcycle fatalities in many (but not all) ways. Most such pilots die of/doing something other than flying their aircraft but there is a definite risk involved. > [@JHBoom](#): > > No. John Denver bought an experimental, amateur-built [Rutan Long-EZ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutan_Long-EZ) with a fuel system that hadn’t been built to plans. The [NTSB report](https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001208X09045&ntsbno=LAX98FA008&akey=1) is an enlightening read. Yes. Denver was a highly experienced and skilled pilot who died due to unfamiliarity with a non-standard aircraft. As I said - even for experienced pilots these smaller aircraft can be problematic. Chuck Yeager famously took several hours of instruction before flying an ultralight solo. If Chuck thinks it’s a good idea to take a few lessons you should, too. > [@](#): > > Point of clarification: the Icon A5 is not an ultralight. It is certified by the FAA as a [Light Sport Aircraft](https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/light_sport/), with waivers to get around some of the LSA-category weight & performance restrictions. Those waivers are more or less necessary for amphibious aircraft - the amphibious ultralights also have modified limits. You can’t make a safe amphib with the more restrictive requirements. Or at least no one has pulled it off yet that I’m aware of. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/32 "2017-11-09T15:14:13Z")
Does the [Searey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Aerodyne_SeaRey) require a waiver (other than for retractable gear)? (I’m not sure) Brian ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/33 "2017-11-09T15:52:10Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > As it is an amphibious aircraft “getting close to the water” is not inherently a problem. They’re _designed_ to get close to water, as in, actually floating on the water. Flying from water definitely has its own special skills and pitfalls. You have to deal with wave height, wind direction, visibility, the transition from displacement (floating) to planing (skimming over the water), and probably a hundred other things. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/34 "2017-11-09T16:33:37Z")
> [@goldmund](#): > > Halladay’s plane was no ordinary small aircraft. It was an [ICON A5](https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICON_A5). Fewer than thirty have been manufactured, and two have had fatal crashes. The first crash claimed the lives of the company’s own lead engineer and engineering director. Not exactly a stellar safety record. The second crash was determined to be pilot error. The pilot flew up a blind canyon that did not have enough room for him to turn around. It wasn’t the airplane’s fault. (I don’t remember the probably cause of the first crash.) > [@Absolute](#): > > Ugh. The Icon A5 is a disaster. It’s an underpowered, compromised airplane designed to meet an arbitrary regulatory distinctions (which it needed a waiver for anyway) that would allow it to be marketed to inexperienced pilots and require less training than a normal light aircraft. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Here’s the problem - as noted these models are aggressively marketed as little miracle machines. They’re not. They ARE easy to fly… when conditions are excellent. Conditions are not always excellent. What qualifies as “hazardous conditions” in these very small airplanes is not always obvious to those inexperienced with them… _All_ airplanes are compromises. I don’t think there’s anything ‘wrong’ with the aircraft itself. But flying requires a bit of training, and airplanes (i.e., flying machines with an N-number) shouldn’t be marketed to people as if they were flying JetSkis or Quadrunners. > [@Leaffan](#): > > Isn’t this pretty much exactly what happened to John Denver? Denver crashed because of the non-standard installation of the fuel selector. From the video I watched, Halladay’s crash was pilot error. ETA: _Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect._ — Captain A. G. Lamplugh . ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/35 "2017-11-09T16:43:11Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > _All_ airplanes are compromises. I don’t think there’s anything ‘wrong’ with the aircraft itself. But flying requires a bit of training, and airplanes (i.e., flying machines with an N-number) shouldn’t be marketed to people as if they were flying JetSkis or Quadrunners. > . Agreed. But I’ll add Jetskis to the list of things that should require training before operating. It’s criminal that they let you rent one for the day with no training and thereby risk life and limb. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/36 "2017-11-09T18:40:46Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I wasn’t a close student of his career, but from what I see in his record, I’m going to respectfully disagree. I don’t think he’s a slam-dunk HoF member, but I think that he has a reasonably strong case. I actually think he _is_ a slam-dunk Hall of Famer. Leaving the deep dive into the numbers for another time: what other pitcher whose career significantly overlapped Halladay’s - other than Pedro Martinez - has a _better_ case? Kershaw is not really his contemporary, nor were Randy Johnson or Roger Clemens. So who? Tim Lincecum? Cliff Lee? Felix Hernandez? If Halladay doesn’t go into the Hall of Fame, you’re basically saying that there was only one Hall of Fame pitcher in the entire sport between Johnson and Kershaw, and that seems unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/37 "2017-11-09T19:54:55Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > I actually think he _is_ a slam-dunk Hall of Famer. Leaving the deep dive into the numbers for another time: what other pitcher whose career significantly overlapped Halladay’s - other than Pedro Martinez - has a _better_ case? Kershaw is not really his contemporary, nor were Randy Johnson or Roger Clemens. So who? Tim Lincecum? Cliff Lee? Felix Hernandez? If Halladay doesn’t go into the Hall of Fame, you’re basically saying that there was only one Hall of Fame pitcher in the entire sport between Johnson and Kershaw, and that seems unlikely. One would be hard pressed to find pitchers of equivalent career total AND peak accomplishments who are not in the Hall, aside from guys who aren’t eligible or Roger Clemens, who will eventually get in. There are a few; Mike Mussina and Curt Schilling, for example, but I think they should be in, too. Why not do a Keltner List? 1. Was he ever the best pitcher in baseball? Yes. He was the best pitcher in baseball in the late 2000s up to 2011, really. He was the best pitcher in the AL in 2002-2003, too, for what that is worth. 2. Was he the best player on his team? Halladay was absolutely the greatest player Toronto had from mid-2001 to 2009, and while they weren’t great, they had some decent squads in that time. He was probably Philadelphia’s best player, too, and that was a first place team. He was the best player on his team at least five or six times by WAR. 3. Was he the best pitcher in his league? Yes, as this is a subset of Question 1; it’s more true than 1, actually. 4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races? Did he help teams win championships? Not much. Halladay never made the playoffs with Toronto, and helped cost them a division title in 2000, when the team could not find good starters and Halladay was terrible. He had a significant impact on the pennant race in both 2010 and 2011; I am not sure the Phillies win the division in 2010 without him and it’s not clear they even win the wild card. He helped them win in 2011 too but they would have won without him. 5. Was he good enough to pitch past his prime? Halladay was awesome through his age 34 season, so moderately so. His arm died after that. 6. Is Roy Halladay the best pitcher in history eligible for induction but not in the Hall of Fame? No, Roger Clemens is, of course. Strong arguments can be made for Schilling and Mussina. 7. Are most players with similar statistics in the Hall of Fame? There are not a lot of greatly similar players, unfortunately. The only pitcher who is really similar is Zack Grienke, who’s still pitching, and Dwight Gooden, who is an odd case and whose numbers are contextually inferior. Every pitcher on his similarity list is behind him in WAR, some by a lot, usually because they did not pitch in the Steroid Era. 8. Are this pitcher’s numbers consistent with Hall of Fame standards? Halladay is pretty mid mid-range for a Hall of Fame starter; he’d a bit ahead in some measures, behind in others. His career is short (in terms of innings and games) for a Hall of Fame starter, but his career peak is high. He has one of the highest winning percentages in MLB history despite not pitching for a lot of great teams, and most of the guys above him did not win as many games as he did. 9. Did he win Cy Young Awards? Was he in the voting a lot? Halladay won two Cy Youngs, in 2003 wiith Toronto and 2010 with Philadelphia. He was high in the voting many times, including a second place finish in 2008 and 2011. Quite honestly, he should have won the award in 2011. In 2002, Halladay didn’t get a single vote, but he should have won the award that year, too. 10. Was he on many All Star teams? Halladay was named to eight All Star teams, a good number for a starting pitcher. 11. If this player was the best player on his team could that team win a pennant? He was the best player the Phillies had when they won two divisions, so obviously so. 12. Is there anything about this player that is special, that indicates he is better than he appears, that should be taken into consideration? Aside from remembering that his ERA and whatnot was compiled in a super high offense time, not really. His numbers are what they are. His story of rebuilding himself is interesting but I’m not sure it’s a qualification. So most of the answers are “yes” but not all. He’s a Hall of Famer but not inner circle. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/38 "2017-11-09T20:08:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > 1. Is there anything about this player that is special, that indicates he is better than he appears, that should be taken into consideration? > Aside from remembering that his ERA and whatnot was compiled in a super high offense time, not really. His numbers are what they are. His story of rebuilding himself is interesting but I’m not sure it’s a qualification. I know it probably didn’t change his numbers or his overall contribution very much, but something i’d consider putting in here is the number of complete games he pitched. In five seasons, he finished at least 25% of the games he started, without fucking up his overall quality or durability. He led his league in CGs seven times. In an era when plenty of good starting pitchers barely pitch one or two complete games per season, that’s pretty impressive, even if it’s not really a stat that tells us too much about his overall quality as a pitcher. He could have pitched fewer CGs and still been a HoF pitcher. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/39 "2017-11-09T20:25:54Z")
Excellent summary, RickJay. Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001/40 "2017-11-10T19:14:31Z")
Halladay’s contemporaries present a lot of interesting cases for the HOF. Johan Santana, Roy Oswalt, Verlander, Sabathia, Bartolo Colon, Lincecum. None of them, except _maybe_ Verlander, feels like a slam dunk. Halladay has as a better case than probably any of them, including Verlander. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-mlb-pitcher-roy-halladay-dies-in-plane-crash/801001.md?page=3)