# Former Supreme Court Justice Convinced By Book That Texas Executed An Innocent Man in 1989 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 28, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163 "2015-01-28T23:43:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/21 "2015-01-29T16:45:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Rick Perry is an ass, but he makes a valid point here. No, he doesn’t. Facts matter. Play hypothetical games elsewhere. Plenty of death penalty proponents think this case was all kinds of screwed up. Rick Perry covering his ass by asserting his own personal conviction doesn’t change that. > [@Smapti](#): > > Assume that there was absolutely no doubt that Willingham burned his children to death. Why would he deserve to live? Again, facts matter. This isn’t a hypothetical game. This is a man’s life. And one that was taken by the state without a full and proper investigation. In fact, after a bungled, half-assed investigation that was revealed as such before the execution. Even assuming people should be executed for certain crimes, we should make damned certain they actually committed them. And that sure as hell didn’t happen here. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/22 "2015-01-29T16:46:50Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Again, facts matter. > > This isn’t a hypothetical game. You’re right. And the fact is that Willingham burned his children to death. Did he deserve to live? ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/23 "2015-01-29T16:47:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And that’s why it’s a good thing that that’s not what happened in the Willingham case. What do you think did happen? Did Willingham start the fire? Did someone else start the fire? Or was there no arson involved? The third option means no murder took place. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/24 "2015-01-29T16:58:46Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > What do you think did happen? Did Willingham start the fire? Did someone else start the fire? Or was there no arson involved? The third option means no murder took place. I think that the crime happened essentially as the prosecution proved that it did. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/25 "2015-01-29T17:11:31Z")
@Smapti, Great Antibob & Crotalus That’s why I said whether he did it or not. The issue for me is not whether he committed the crime or not. It’s the system that allows obvious flaws in the prosecution to go unimpeached after the trial. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/26 "2015-01-29T17:12:46Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > That’s why I said whether he did it or not. The issue for me is not whether he committed the crime or not. It’s the system that allows obvious flaws in the prosecution to go unimpeached after the trial. That’s what the appeals process is for, especially in death penalty cases. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/27 "2015-01-29T17:32:29Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It’s the system that allows obvious flaws in the prosecution to go unimpeached after the trial. That’s more or less what I agree with. As I noted, even in the worst case that Willingham did actually kill his children, the systemic failures in the investigation and prosecution made too much of a hash of things to actually prove it happened or to give us confidence that an execution was truly warranted. > [@Smapti](#): > > I think that the crime happened essentially as the prosecution proved that it did. Seriously? The prosecutor himself no longer thinks it happened as he “proved” it did. He’s on the record stating the arson investigation was flawed and that it didn’t occur as hypothesized. He hedges a bit by saying he thinks the rest of the evidence is sufficient to justify the conviction. So, what exactly are you arguing here? Because not even the justice system agrees with you on this point. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/28 "2015-01-29T17:35:47Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > So, what exactly are you arguing here? Because not even the justice system agrees with you on this point. Unless his conviction was reversed without anyone telling us, “the justice system” agrees with me - Willingham murdered his children. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/29 "2015-01-29T17:43:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Unless his conviction was reversed without anyone telling us, “the justice system” agrees with me That’s not what you claimed. You claimed: > [@Smapti](#): > > I think that the crime happened essentially as the prosecution proved that it did. The prosecution disagrees with you here. He now believes events did NOT occur as argued during the trial. So, again, what are you arguing? That the ends justify the means, and the little details (like whether arson even occurred or not) don’t matter? That flawed investigations are ok as long as you agree with the verdict? That’s seriously messed up. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/30 "2015-01-29T17:48:15Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > The prosecution disagrees with you here. He now believes events did NOT occur as argued during the trial. [No, he says that the forensic report was flawed.](http://web.archive.org/web/20090905174348/http://www.corsicanadailysun.com/opinion/local_story_241210447.html)He does not deny that Willingham started the fire and used accelerants to hasten its spread. In any event, he’s sharing his personal opinion as a private citizen 20 years after the fact, not acting as a representative of the prosecutor’s office. > [@](#): > > That the ends justify the means, and the little details (like whether arson even occurred or not) don’t matter? That flawed investigations are ok as long as you agree with the verdict? That’s seriously messed up. I’m arguing that if a man is guilty, and he is found guilty, then “flawed investigations” are not an argument for letting him live. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/31 "2015-01-29T21:21:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That’s what the appeals process is for, especially in death penalty cases. My understanding is that the appeals process is very limited in scope and is not a retrying of the facts. As such the Appeals Court would rule if evidence was properly admitted not that the evidence makes no fucking sense. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/32 "2015-01-29T22:19:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m arguing that if a man is guilty, and he is found guilty, then “flawed investigations” are not an argument for letting him live. That phrase “if a man is guilty” really stands out there. We don’t know that - what we know is that he was found guilty based on a flawed investigation. Is that finding of guilt, in that circumstance, enough to kill him? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/33 "2015-01-29T22:21:32Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > That phrase “if a man is guilty” really stands out there. We don’t know that - what we know is that he was found guilty based on a flawed investigation. Is that finding of guilt, in that circumstance, enough to kill him? Yes, because, as noted above, all the evidence _even if the forensic investigation is thrown out entirely_ indicates that Willingham set the fire in order to kill the twins. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/34 "2015-01-29T23:24:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, of course DeLuna didn’t do it - he _said_ it was the other guy dressed like him and who looked just like him, and why would he lie about something like that? For a lark, let’s suppose he was correct and the other guy was dressed like him and looked like him. How differently would you expect him to act? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/35 "2015-01-30T03:28:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, because, as noted above, all the evidence _even if the forensic investigation is thrown out entirely_ indicates that Willingham set the fire in order to kill the twins. From what I’ve read of the case, the flawed forensic investigation was all they had that indicated his guilt. What else do you know of besides that? ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/36 "2015-01-30T05:51:56Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > JP Stevens has been the worst of far-left activist judges for years before he retired. Far-left? If only. Activist judges? That’s what they’re called by people who don’t like their rulings. As for these cases, [apparently the scandal of a wrongful execution in the United Kingdom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Evans) had much to do with ending the death penalty there. Keep in mind that, for the death-penalty apparatchiks, there’s a lot at stake, and good reasons why they might like to see such a case never truly exposed to the full light of truth, even if they know deep down that a grave injustice was done. They would lose face, but that’s only part of it. By the same token, have we all heard of [that Republican focus group that thought that Perry’s willingness to execute an innocent man actually made him more appealing?](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newrepublic.com%2Fblog%2Fjonathan-chait%2F93136%2Fit-takes-balls-execute-innocent-man&ei=exvLVIrbNYW6ggSVrISwCQ&usg=AFQjCNFymlYOxf62RHXuQnCMjm6NdEXWfA&bvm=bv.84607526,d.eXY) And most of these people call themselves pro-life, but they endorse the death penalty, and, more significantly, war! ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/37 "2015-01-30T09:06:42Z")
You all are arguing with someone who believes that executing a factually innocent person is impossible in the United States. I’m not sure what you think you’re accomplishing here. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/38 "2015-01-30T09:48:03Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > From what I’ve read of the case, the flawed forensic investigation was all they had that indicated his guilt. What else do you know of besides that? Anti-CP fanatics like to pretend the only evidence was the forensic report and an Iron Maiden poster because it helps them trivialize the strength of the prosecution’s case. As noted above, there were lots of other factors; - Willingham was known to beat his wife and had punched her in the stomach while pregnant with the twins in an attempt to cause a miscarriage - He admitted to investigators that he had poured cologne on the floor outside the twins’ room, where the fire started - The back door had been blocked with a refrigerator box, making escape impossible without going through the blaze - Despite claiming he made multiple rescue attempts, Willingham had no signs of smoke inhalation and only superficial burns that showed signs of being self-inflicted - When he learned the fire department was on the way he broke a window, allowing oxygen into the home and causing the fire to spread - At the funeral, he was heard saying over his older daughter’s casket that “you’re not the one who was supposed to die” - In the days after the fire he was observed to be in good spirits about how “money isn’t going to be a problem now” and only acted bereaved when the police were around The evidence points to him deliberately starting the fire to kill the twins, and his older daughter being collateral damage. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/39 "2015-01-30T14:26:18Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Irrelevant in this case. > > Rick Perry is on record stating before and after the execution and despite some evidence to the contrary he is absolutely certain no mistakes were made, that Willingham was a wife beater, and that he deliberately burned his children to death to cover for child abuse. > > He’s also stated that subsequent forensic evidence was trumped up by “supposed experts” (his air quotes, not mine) as part of an anti death penalty campaign. Given all that, it’s unlikely he was going to grant any stays or clemency. > > Even the prosecutor in the case said well after the fact that the arson investigation was significantly flawed, though he also covered his ass by stating he thought the other evidence was sufficient for the murder conviction. > > It’s a disgusting case. Even in the worst case, Willingham didn’t deserve the death penalty but a prison sentence. The investigation process was too flawed to even remotely be considered serving justice. I think it’s relevant regardless of what a Governor says, when people point to Governors not willing to grand clemency for political reasons as part of the “problem” in Texas. That is only true if the board recommended clemency to the governor. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Let’s also not forget Cameron Todd Willingham, [executed in Texas](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1917454) because of junk science, public enthusiasm for the death penalty and sloganeering which discourages governors from issuing stays of execution or pardons. Something I think often forgotten, and I had a lot of discussions just like this due to the airing of the _Serial_ podcast, is the burden of proof is fundamentally different in the United States once you are convicted. In many cases of persons that the public or individuals have a strong belief is innocent, but who has been convicted, after-the-fact investigations dig up things that **if presented at trial** would have probably, or at least “possibly” been found to represent reasonable doubt and would have lead to an acquittal. But that is **irrelevant** , once someone is convicted and has exhausted their initial appeals. Some substantial evidence found in the early stages of the State appeals process can allow an appellate court to overrule a jury’s finding of facts. But the concept of finality makes this much more difficult once you’re to the point of filing habeas petitions as your last avenue of attack on the original conviction (which is typically the case with all of these cause celebre cases, the investigative journalism and competent lawyers don’t work on destroying the evidence that convicted the person until long after the ordinary State appellate process has ran its course), as “mere innocence” is not enough to necessarily guarantee granting of habeas. That is why there is often the scenario (even in non-death penalty cases like that of Jeffrey MacDonald or Adnan Syed) where years and years later a firm amount of evidence at least making it obvious the person shouldn’t have been convicted is found by investigating journalists and lawyers working pro bono often does little to advance the convicted person’s cause. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163/40 "2015-01-30T16:20:16Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > By the same token, have we all heard of [that Republican focus group that thought that Perry’s willingness to execute an innocent man actually made him more appealing?](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newrepublic.com%2Fblog%2Fjonathan-chait%2F93136%2Fit-takes-balls-execute-innocent-man&ei=exvLVIrbNYW6ggSVrISwCQ&usg=AFQjCNFymlYOxf62RHXuQnCMjm6NdEXWfA&bvm=bv.84607526,d.eXY) Your link says: > [@](#): > > Multiple former Hutchison advisers recalled asking a focus group about the charge that Perry may have presided over the execution of an innocent man – Cameron Todd Willingham – and got this response from a primary voter: “It takes balls to execute an innocent man.” Why did you say the focus group as a whole approved of this sentiment? Did they? I can’t find any evidence this is so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-supreme-court-justice-convinced-by-book-that-texas-executed-an-innocent-man-in-1989/711163.md?page=3)