# FORMER Wisconsin hospital employee deliberately destroys \>500 doses of COVID vaccine **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 31, 2020, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323 "2020-12-31T04:52:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/81 "2021-01-03T18:14:24Z")
It’s good for up to five days refrigerated, and up to two hours at room temperature. It doesn’t suddenly completely lose potency at that instant. We know that up to two hours after at room temperature it’s still at (or immeasurably close to) full potency. We don’t know how long after that it takes to reach 0 potency (at least, I haven’t seen publicly released details on that). From the reporting I’ve seen, it was left out for two days. The first day, it would almost certainly have had some potency. The second day, it _might_ have lost all of its potency, but we don’t really know. I Am Not A Virologist, but it just seems unlikely to me that it would be 100% _in_effective at that point. I certainly don’t think you could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. If someone with expert knowledge says otherwise, I’ll gladly defer to them. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/82 "2021-01-03T18:17:26Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > It’s good for up to five days refrigerated, and up to two hours at room temperature. Right but compare that to vaccines you’re basing your “highly probable” it was still effective on. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/83 "2021-01-03T18:17:30Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > The delivery method is so delicate. The delivery mechanism isn’t delicate. The transportation and storage requirements are. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/84 "2021-01-03T18:18:15Z")
The mRNA delivery mechanism is delicate. That’s why it has to be so cold and can’t be jostled. The shipping is delicate _because_ of that. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/85 "2021-01-03T18:22:23Z")
Criminal charges don’t require absolute cause, though. If I shoot someone, it’s possible that they’ll still survive, and if I don’t shoot someone, it’s possible that they’ll still die, but if I shoot someone and they die, the courts have no trouble calling that murder. I think (but IANAL) that all that the court would have to establish would be that the defendant’s actions had a significant chance of causing harm or death, and that harm or death of that sort did in fact occur. And I think both of those points are within the range of what could be established, here. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/86 "2021-01-03T18:38:52Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > Right but compare that to vaccines you’re basing your “highly probable” it was still effective on. I’m honestly having difficulty parsing the grammar of that sentence. You also seem to either be misunderstanding or distorting what I meant. I think it’s probable that at least some of the doses had at least some immunostimulant effect on at least some of the recipients. I don’t think it would be possible to prove that _no one_ got _any_ level of increased resistance from the “ruined” vaccines. But. I am not an expert. Again, if someone with more expert knowledge (or a cite) comes in and says something like after four hours at room temperature, the mRNA has completely broken down and there’s no detectable levels left, or the “packets” have completely broken down and none of the mRNA is bioavailable, I’ll happily concede. If the vaccine remains at 100% (or immeasurably close) potency after two hours at room temperature _and_ after five _days_ refrigerated, it just seems really unlikely to me that it would be at 0% potency after being left out overnight. But, I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/87 "2021-01-03T18:41:25Z")
The Oxford vaccine can stay in a fridge indefinitely, is what I’m etting at. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/88 "2021-01-03T18:43:02Z")
Yeah, but he _didn’t_ shoot anyone. He didn’t expose anyone to COVID. Don’t misunderstand me - I absolutely think he should be facing serious criminal charges. IANAL either, but I just can’t see how you could establish legal causality. From what I’ve read, he’s being charged with “first-degree recklessly endangering safety, adulterating a prescription drug and criminal damage to property.” That seems about right to me. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/89 "2021-01-03T18:52:42Z")
I agree with this. A murder charge is pretty ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/90 "2021-01-04T05:00:01Z")
This makes sense. Further charges can be added later, if warranted. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/91 "2021-01-04T05:26:06Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > From the linked story: “About 2 in 10 Americans are certain they will not change their mind about refusing the vaccine, [according to data from the Pew Research Center](https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2020/12/03/intent-to-get-a-covid-19-vaccine-rises-to-60-as-confidence-in-research-and-development-process-increases/). And 62 percent said they would be uncomfortable being among the first to receive the vaccine.” My wife and I spoke about this today. I admit, I’m a little uncomfortable getting the vaccine because I am not an early adopter. But I’m going to get it once it’s available to me because I feel as though the benefits outweigh the risks. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/92 "2021-01-04T05:37:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Criminal charges don’t require absolute cause, though. If I shoot someone, it’s possible that they’ll still survive, and if I don’t shoot someone, it’s possible that they’ll still die, but if I shoot someone and they die, the courts have no trouble calling that murder. > > I think (but IANAL) that all that the court would have to establish would be that the defendant’s actions had a significant chance of causing harm or death, and that harm or death of that sort did in fact occur. And I think both of those points are within the range of what could be established, here. It’s not absolute cause, but it is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The prosecution has to prove that the injury caused the death. There can be complications like intervening events (e.g. doctor makes a serious mistake in the treatment of the victim), but it’s not generally thought of “it could have been a contributing factor” - there has to be proof of causality. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/93 "2021-01-04T13:09:44Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I feel as though the benefits outweigh the risks. That’s good…but it’s not about how you “feel,” it’s simply that the benefits outweigh the risks, period. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/94 "2021-01-04T13:28:39Z")
Nobody who’s getting the vaccine now is an early adopter. That’s what the clinical trials were for, and the vaccine passed those trials. Yes, the trials were conducted more quickly than usual, but no less thoroughly: It turns out that you can speed things up somewhat by throwing billions of dollars at them. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/95 "2021-01-04T13:35:35Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Teachers unions. As someone who is himself in a public employee union, I can tell you that it can be very difficult to get fired when you are part of such an organization. Actually, not. We are a small kindergarten with only six Western teachers. The guy is actually a damn good teacher! He gets along better with kindergarten kids than adults, I think, and the kids are too young to be affected by any of his beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/96 "2021-01-04T14:18:51Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Actually, not. We are a small kindergarten with only six Western teachers. The guy is actually a damn good teacher! He gets along better with kindergarten kids than adults, I think, and the kids are too young to be affected by any of his beliefs. In your case I wondered if this was a school in Japan, in which case my comment might not mean anything. My own youngest goes to a small private school and my comment wouldn’t apply to any of her teachers either. But in most US schools, teachers unions can make it hard to fire bad teachers. This isn’t a rant against teachers or teachers unions, as I said I’m in a similar union myself (AFSCME) so I’d be a hypocrite because I benefit from a similar situation. But every now and then, we acknowledge that the same protections we enjoy can be an issue when a coworker is a big problem and they aren’t going anywhere. I’m glad to hear that the teacher isn’t a problem when it comes to the kids. That’s really all that matters honestly. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/97 "2021-01-04T15:45:58Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > In your case I wondered if this was a school in Japan, in which case my comment might not mean anything. Taiwan, actually, but the legal protection would be better in Japan. > [@Atamasama](#): > > I’m glad to hear that the teacher isn’t a problem when it comes to the kids. That’s really all that matters honestly. Apparently the teacher is a real pain in the ass to deal with for administration but he is a gifted teacher. Unfortunately, he knows it and lacks any sense of modesty and doesn’t hesitate to leverage his special status to push the rules to just millimeters shy of the breaking point. Wearing masks is a mandate which even he can’t evade. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/98 "2021-01-04T21:02:07Z")
I’ve got as small problem with the thread title. Was he a former employee when he deliberately destroyed the vaccine? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/99 "2021-01-04T21:14:42Z")
He was fired for the offence. I think the article I saw was worded like the thread title. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2021, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323/100 "2021-01-05T02:39:54Z")
Apparently, he thinks the vaccines will mutate people’s DNA (how in hell did he become a pharmacist without understanding chemistry and biology better than this?). He’s currently getting a divorce and he’s recently taken a gun to work with him twice. From the sound of it, he’s been down wandering through the conspiracy theory wonderland for quite some time. > **[Prosecutor: Wisconsin pharmacist thought vaccine was unsafe](https://apnews.com/article/wisconsin-pharmacist-steven-brandenburg-ac00faee3cf10a9558665d472123b96c)** > > MADISON, Wis. (AP) — A Wisconsin pharmacist convinced the world was “crashing down” told police he tried to ruin hundreds of doses of coronavirus vaccine because he believed the shots would mutate people’s DNA, according to court documents released... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/former-wisconsin-hospital-employee-deliberately-destroys-500-doses-of-covid-vaccine/929323.md?page=6)