# Formula One Debate: Ferrari at the A-1 ring **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2002, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-debate-ferrari-at-the-a-1-ring/109453 "2002-05-16T22:04:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-debate-ferrari-at-the-a-1-ring/109453/21 "2002-05-17T22:05:12Z")
i double-checked that fastest lap: lap 69 M. Schumacher 1.09.298 (new record) also: friday practice: Micheal behind 0.03 sec. sat practice: Michael ahead 0.71 sec. sun practice: Michael behind 0.02 sec. I know what Michael said in the press, but I wouldn’t call Rubens (either of them!) performance “dominant” all weekend. ---
**Author:** ![Lorenzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4da419/32.png) [@Lorenzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lorenzo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-debate-ferrari-at-the-a-1-ring/109453/22 "2002-05-18T00:35:59Z")
F1 rules and team rules dictate that what Ferarri did was legal, but that doesn’t mean it was right. I do think if nothing else the fans were cheated and the legitimacy of the sport is diminished. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-debate-ferrari-at-the-a-1-ring/109453/23 "2002-05-18T13:26:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gatopescado \* > \*\*Elvis- great points Thank you. > [@](#): > > …with guys like Yoong on the track, anything is possible! OK, I’ll bite. How is a rookie in a Minardi going to affect the championship, except by failing to get out of the way? > [@](#): > > It is my understanding that the sport is about a team producing the most advanced racecar within a framework of existing rules, and using it to defeat the other teams. It has both team-sport and individual-sport aspects. Therein lies the debate. > [@](#): > > I am a Ferrari fan because they are the only team out there that produces their own chassis and engine, and produces road-going cars. Toyota does too now, but they’re in their first year in F1. Yes, I agree that Ferrari does everything right technically. Certainly they have the best and most reliable engines (at least Schumacher does; Barrichello’s blow up regularaly), the best aero package, the best top driver, the best tactician in Ross Brawn, the best tires (the ones Bridgestone makes custom just for Schumacher and that the other drivers have to put up with), and the best money-raising that makes the rest possible. But they’re still pricks, and so are the bulk of their fans. Check the stands the next time Schumacher crashes during a race - everyone in a red jacket, carrying a prancing-horse flag, will leave immediately. They’re not true racing fans, or they’d stay to see the race they paid so much to get in for. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-debate-ferrari-at-the-a-1-ring/109453/24 "2002-05-19T17:04:15Z")
> [@](#): > > OK, I’ll bite. How is a rookie in a Minardi going to affect the championship, except by failing to get out of the way? Yoong braked very hard and early into one corner and caused other drivers to brake too early, resulting in a spectacular slide by Heidfeld which very nearly took out a blameless Monoya, and collected Sato with a huge impact. Yoong is a little bit unpredictable when being lapped, and its a cert that Schumacher will have to do just that throughout the remainder of the season. Now to correct this > [@](#): > > There are “strict”\* rules regarding on-track behavior. For example, car A1 and A2 (team A) cannot conspire to prevent car B from passing for a position. So, if A1 were in first, A2 in second place cannot “shield” him from a charging B in third place. Of course they can conspire to prevent passing, car B would be dicing for second place and A2 would defend that, which would also protet his teammate. Reality is that A2 would probably do his level best to slow B down to allow A1 to escape, this has happened many times, it then may allow the fourth placed driver to catch up and join the fray, which would make life harder for driver B who would have to defend his own position as well as try to pass A2. The only time that A2 would not be allowed to defend his position would be if he was being lapped by car B, and this has happened too. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-debate-ferrari-at-the-a-1-ring/109453/25 "2002-05-19T17:07:39Z")
Here is a brief history of why there are team orders, and the effect of ignoring them, it has cost at least two world titles. [http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ftdt047.html](http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ftdt047.html) ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-debate-ferrari-at-the-a-1-ring/109453/26 "2002-05-21T04:20:38Z")
i cant believe i forgot toyota! what a dork! dave- you are correct about teams being able to conspire to prevent overtaking. what i was getting at, but did not make clear at all was a case where the third place car was _clearly_ faster and the second place car was blocking. blocking is a no-no. dicing (and you can do that and effectivly block if your good enough) is just part of racing. elvis- not only do ferrari fans do what you discribed. in brazil, as soon as their drive is out, they leave in rowdy mobs, disrupting the other fans as they do (i was “lucky” enough to attend the 84 GP, where senna and piquet both DNFed. it was ugly!) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-debate-ferrari-at-the-a-1-ring/109453/27 "2002-05-21T16:00:54Z")
Don’t feel too bad. We both forgot Renault, too - maybe because we still think of it as Benetton. Dave, thanks for the Yoong explanation. I missed the early part of the race, as I often do when they’re in Europe - too damn early to get up on a Sunday morning over here. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2002, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-debate-ferrari-at-the-a-1-ring/109453/28 "2002-05-22T15:12:03Z")
elvis- set your vcr. not only do you get to watch it on your schedual, but you can fast forward thru the crappy commercials and rewind the good stuff! most races start at 4:30am my time, so its a must. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-debate-ferrari-at-the-a-1-ring/109453/29 "2002-05-23T08:15:28Z")
I must say I think it hurts the sport (in an extremely marginal and probably insignificant way). I understand all that has been said to suggest that the decision was justifiable, and I basically agree, in a hard headed way. But it still hurts the sport to the extent that people do not like to see a sportsman who does an exceptional job get defeated by cold hearted logic and money and bureacracy and so on. And they love the romance of a “little” guy (who is not expected to win) getting up and winning against a “big” guy like Schumacher. That may not be logical, that may not be reality, that may not be justifiable in a million and one financial and logical ways, but if annoying the fans hurts the sport (and I guess it does at least a little) then this incident hurt the sport. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2002, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-debate-ferrari-at-the-a-1-ring/109453/30 "2002-06-25T05:55:29Z")
Well look at that. Ferrari let Rubens win this week, but unfortunately he’s four points out of second place. This week, at least, Ferrari deserves the finger from its adoring fans, because Barrichello is getting the shaft in the standings _as a direct result_ of the four points he was denied back in May. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-debate-ferrari-at-the-a-1-ring/109453.md?page=1)