# Formula One farce **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931 "2005-06-19T18:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/21 "2005-06-20T17:46:17Z")
[“They” meaning Max Mosley specifically.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4109978.stm) The same guy who presented his own proposed changes to tech specs for after the 2008 expiration of the Concorde Agreement as part of a [speech](http://sport.guardian.co.uk/formulaone/story/0,10069,1508469,00.html) condemning the sport for having become “divorced from reality”. Nobody needs you, Max. You’ve done enough damage. Now be a good lad and bugger off. Tony George’s contribution was to give the attendees the addresses of Michelin, Bernie Ecclestone, and Max Mosley. Yep, for once, he’s one of the good guys. The casino could easily be seen in the wide-angle helicopter shots from just south of the Senna Curve. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/22 "2005-06-20T17:53:51Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I _still_ can’t believe none of this is Tony George’s fault. It just seems cosmically wrong, somehow. Yes, it’s extremely irksome to be forced to admit he’s done nothing wrong in this particular case. How unjust to be deprived of an otherwise perfect opportunity to further demonize someone I already despise with more passion than cause. (Is it _very_ obvious that I’ve been reading Jane Austen lately?) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/23 "2005-06-20T18:08:29Z")
[No sinner is beyond redemption:](http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050620/SPORTS0103/506200379) > [@](#): > > Speedway CEO Tony George was so disillusioned with the sixth annual event that he refused to wave the checkered flag to end it. George also instructed his staff to decline participation in the post-race awards ceremony. > > Speedway President Joie Chitwood said there is no commitment to bring F-1 back next year. That will be reviewed in the coming days, he said. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/24 "2005-06-20T18:41:40Z")
[The Indy Star’s front page editorial:](http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050620/SPORTS0103/506200369) > [@](#): > > Remember how F-1 boss Ecclestone complained Friday that the Indianapolis Motor Speedway folks don’t do a good enough job of selling his race to local motor sports fans? > > How would he propose to sell a race next season? > \* > The United States Grand Prix: This time, we think they’ll show up!\* > … > > It was bad enough that F-1 came into Indianapolis six years ago acting like they deserved to be treated like royalty. Drivers, who could not be seen mixing with the hoi polloi, were completely unavailable to fans. And F-1 officials generally treated everybody, including the local media, like a mere nuisance. > > It was bad enough three years ago when Ferrari staged one of its “managed” finishes, with Michael Schumacher slowing down to give teammate Rubens Barrichello the victory. > > With Sunday’s farce, though, F-1 wrote itself a one-way ticket out of Indianapolis and, in all likelihood, the entire American market. > > Which raises the question: Can we help them pack? > > The Grand Prix is (was) a nice, novel event, and it brought an estimated $170 million into the local economy. For one weekend a year, Indianapolis felt a little bit like an international city. > > But F-1 is the rude houseguest who never brings anything to the party and continues to wipe its muddy shoes on the new Persian rug. > > And to do it at Indianapolis Motor Speedway, the mecca of all motor sports, that’s like playing handball against the Wailing Wall. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/25 "2005-06-20T18:47:16Z")
I don’t watch racing, F1 or any of the US versions, but I found this story interesting. For all the fuck-ups that happened, the way I saw it was this. The teams all should have raced as is. Yes, F1 has some dumb rules, and alot of people were stubborn for curious reasons. But here’s the thing IMHO, racing is all about driving within the limits of your equipment. If you chose tires which suck, too bad, if the rules state that you can’t change them, so be it. Go out, race, know that you have a limitation in that turn and adjust accordingly. Sure, there’s a safety issue, but racing is one giant safety issue. And they know that you can safely make that turn at a lower speed, so do it. They know that have to slow down at other turns to prevent hitting a wall, why should this turn be any different? Yeah, the Bridgestone guys have an advantage, but isn;t that part of the “different manufactrer” game? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/26 "2005-06-20T19:10:38Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Sure, there’s a safety issue, but racing is one giant safety issue. And they know that you can safely make that turn at a lower speed, so do it. They know that have to slow down at other turns to prevent hitting a wall, why should this turn be any different? Because it’s more like Russian roulette. F1 cars aren’t really designed for circuits where full-speed impact into concrete walls is likely, certainly since a certain Brazilian had a little incident. A blowout on that turn would be very dangerous indeed. And it’s no good to say ‘drive within the capabilities of the hardware’, because the whole problem was they _didn’t_ know the limitations of the tyres. Anything else is calculated & measured & calculated again, and given time it would have been possible to work out safe speeds for those tyres. Also, take into account the battles against manslaughter charges after Senna’s death. F1 is never going to send drivers out to gamble against an unknown factor in those circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/27 "2005-06-20T20:32:42Z")
Just read this [article](http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?series=f1&id=2090441) off [ESPN.com](http://ESPN.com). Part of it says: > [@](#): > > “The Bridgestone teams had suitable tires. They did not need to slow down,” FIA said. “The Michelin teams’ lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One.” > > The FIA also pointed out that each team is allowed to bring two sets of tires, including a slower tire suitable in all circumstances. > > “Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a backup to Indianapolis,” it noted. Looks like FIA tends to agree with my perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/28 "2005-06-20T20:42:29Z")
Don’t mind me, I thought this might be about [Driven](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0132245/combined). ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/29 "2005-06-20T21:04:17Z")
A friend of mine summed it up perfectly: > [@](#): > > F1 is dead in Indy. I’m betting on it. Here’s why: > > 1. Too damn close to the 500 on the calendar. I think the casual local race fans are good for about one big event every six weeks. Putting this thing three weeks after the 500 was too much racing in a short time. > > 2. There seems to be a renewed love affair with the 500. The “new” 500 has been in place long enough that there’s a consistent core of drivers the fans can latch onto. Plus the Danica thing. I’ll admit I was more interested this past year than I’ve been in the last 5 or so. > > 3. The F1 CEO says dumb things like this (when asked about Danica Patrick) in public: > > Quote: > Before leaving, (F1 CEO Bernie) Ecclestone made one more assessment about women racing with men. > > “You know I’ve got one of those wonderful ideas … women should be dressed in white like all the other domestic appliances.” > > It isn’t the first time Ecclestone commented on women in racing, telling Autosport racing magazine in Feb. 2000 that women would never excel in Forumla One. He added that if a woman did make it, “she would have to be a woman who was blowing away the boys. … What I would really like to see happen is to find the right girl, perhaps a black girl with super looks, preferably Jewish or Muslim, who speaks Spanish.” > Based on the crap they pulled yesterday, I don’t think too many Hoosiers will shed any tears for their departure. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/30 "2005-06-20T21:17:04Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Don’t mind me, I thought this might be about [Driven](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0132245/combined). _Driven_ was a Champ Car farce, not F1. (These days, I’m sorry to say, Champ Car is a Champ Car farce.) ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/31 "2005-06-20T21:21:10Z")
This subject came up at lucnh yesterday. One of the guys at the table had an interesting take on it. He said that at some point you gotta run what you brung. If Bridgestone had been the tire with the problem, no one would be urging a change in the track, the field would have started 6 cars short. On the other hand, I am damn glad that I did not shell out for tickets, airfare, and a hotel. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/32 "2005-06-20T21:26:59Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > Driven was a Champ Car farce, not F1. It’s only a Champ Car farce because they couldn’t work out a filming schedule with the FIA. ---
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/33 "2005-06-20T22:38:51Z")
Okay, here are the rules. 1. All the regulations…equipment, track conditions, eligibility, times, etc…must be set in stone and clearly explained to all relevant parties before the event. 2. Safety first. No needless risking of life and limb for some game. 3. If for some reason the event can’t go as scheduled, _it’s rescheduled_. Damn the cost, damn the reservation messups. Either do it right or not at all. 4. If any part of the event does not conform to regulation, that invalidates the event. It needs to be (yes) rescheduled and held again. Every real sport follows these rules. Every. These are very basic rules which the league _must_ follow if it expects to have **any legitimacy whatsoever**. Baseball has rain delays, boxing has injury stoppages, and NASCAR stops the race for as long as damn necessary when there’s oil on the road. Nobody seems to have a problem with any of this. This is F1, not some flippin’ college hot rod club. They should know better. Anyway, I think the best thing to do is to move to someplace slower and with corners. Something like Infineon or Laguna Seca. That’s what F1 is supposed to be about anyway. Probably won’t be as much of a crowd, but after this fiasco there won’t be much of a crowd anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/34 "2005-06-21T02:04:08Z")
Dude, you’re missing the boat on this one. First, with your boxing analogy. They do stop the fight for injury…and the injured party is the loser, no rescheduling of the fight (except in some extreme circumstance which invalidates the fight, and it’s still not automatically resceduled). Secondly, “needless” risk of life is a pretty vague and relative term. Most would argue that racing in and of itself crosses that line. And the entire “sport” of racing is treading that line between safe and unsafe. Baseball isn’t a realistic comparison, there’s no intrinsic danger in the game like racing. They stop it for lightning, not for a pitcher that’s throwing too hard and wild. There was nothing about this event that didn’t conform. The equipment didn’t meet the demands. Racing is all about the quality of the equipment. Thats a factor of the participant, not the race. If they cannot compete due to choises they made, why would the race be rescheduled to their benefit at everyone else’s cost? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/35 "2005-06-21T03:29:33Z")
> [@Duke of Rat](#): > > Probably already discussed earlier, but if not for the new rules the Michelin guys would have been able to pit for fresh tires. Would have probably made for more pits vs Bridgestone teams, and Bridgestone (Ferrari) would have more than likely still won. At least the fans could see a race. > > I blame Bernie and the F1 powers that be for this rule, changing tires during a race is at least one way to make sure every team can run on whatever brand of tires they wish. If safety is a concern, get fresh tires. If your tire manufacturer is not up to snuff on a particular track, you may have to pit more often. Forcing teams to go the distance on one set of tires is the real problem IMHO. Wait. You’re saying you have to go an entire race on one set of four tires? I’m so used to distance races where you expect at least 5 or 6 pit stops and that many tire changes, that I’m completely amazed. How long is a F1 race? I never watch F1, and for that matter generally the only open-wheel racing I watch at all is the Indy 500. Otherwise, if I watch racing, I’m watching NASCAR. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/36 "2005-06-21T05:41:59Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Wait. You’re saying you have to go an entire race on one set of four tires? I’m so used to distance races where you expect at least 5 or 6 pit stops and that many tire changes, that I’m completely amazed. How long is a F1 race? I never watch F1, and for that matter generally the only open-wheel racing I watch at all is the Indy 500. Otherwise, if I watch racing, I’m watching NASCAR. Yes, this is a new rule for this season. The same tires must be used for qualifying and the entire race. Tires can only be changed in the event of tire damage and you cannot refuel during a pit stop where you change tires, thus penalizing a team that doesn’t manage its tires by forcing extra pit stops. You can only replace a race tire with tires used in the Friday practice sessions. If you run out of those tires, you have to retire from the race. Unlike the 500 mile/four hour marathons that NASCAR generally runs, F1 races are generally slotted to last around about an hour and a half. The race distance is never exactly a round number like 200 miles, but its around that distance. The reason for the new rule was that last year the feeling was that speeds were getting “too fast” because the tires were “too good”. You could change tires at any time. The one tire rule was put in place to force Bridgestone and Michelin to be more conservative in how they construct their tires. Not surprisingly, serious tire wear has been a issue throughout the season leading up to the USGP. Michael Schumacher retired out of the Spanish Grand Prix when his tires went away completely. Kimi Raikkonen flat-spotted his tire towards the end of the European Grand Prix which directly led to the catastrophic failure of his front suspension on the final lap while in the lead. The tires generally look pretty horrible at the end of the race, even on cars like the McLaren, which are notably easy on them. Its more than a little ironic that this flaw popped up in a tire that was ostenibly constructed more conservatively than last year’s model… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/37 "2005-06-21T14:38:09Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > There was nothing about this event that didn’t conform. The equipment didn’t meet the demands. Racing is all about the quality of the equipment. Thats a factor of the participant, not the race. If they cannot compete due to choises they made, why would the race be rescheduled to their benefit at everyone else’s cost? Where do the fans’ interests enter into that analysis? The sport doesn’t exist in its own bubble, with spectators grudgingly permitted to pay to watch it, although that does seem to be the general attitude (and has for many years). That arrogance has a lot to do with F1’s difficulties in attracting a fan base in a country where professional sports organizations know they’re in the entertainment business, and the product they provide had better be entertaining or they’re out of business. It’s a bit of a mystery to me why it’s tolerated so readily in the rest of the world - perhaps because they don’t have any real competition to their business there to force reality upon them? Does Bernie have any idea why NASCAR has been so successful, or why he’s so lucky there’s nothing comparable in any other racing market? Racing is NOT “all about the quality of the equipment”, or about the drivers’ skill either. It’s the entertainment business. That’s the basic fact. Those things are factors in the quality of the entertainment product, nothing more. Above all else, F1 had an obligation, _to itself as a business_ as well as to the fans, its customers, to provide a real race. They could have done so with any number of actions, _but it never even dawned on them that they had to try_. They not only stiffed their customers, they insulted them too, and the effect on their business is as predictable as it would be for any other type of business. FWIW, I’ve seen other stories that Michelin \*did \* manage to get a supply of stronger tires to Indy in time, but the teams would not have been allowed to use them. No question, the original source of the trouble lies with them, but the decisions that made it a travesty were made by others. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/38 "2005-06-21T14:58:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > FWIW, I’ve seen other stories that Michelin \*did \* manage to get a supply of stronger tires to Indy in time, but the teams would not have been allowed to use them. Can you, or anyone else, provide a cite for this? I’ve heard people claim it elsewhere, but I haven’t seen any report that stated it as a fact. It seems unlikely to me to be true, since the letter from FIA (linked somewhere above) specifically said that if the teams wanted to suffer the penalties, they could change tires. And since the Michelin teams were willing to run the race with a chicane and give up **all** points, why wouldn’t they have taken the tire change option as a much preferable alternative? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/39 "2005-06-21T15:06:33Z")
Sorry, the site where I thought I’d seen it doesn’t have it anymore. It may not be true. The facts will likely emerge over the next few days, but frankly, this fan is having increasing trouble caring. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931/40 "2005-06-21T15:32:59Z")
Well, I was expecting this: [Angry Formula One Fan Files Lawsuit](http://www.theindychannel.com/news/4631390/detail.html) > [@](#): > > A Colorado man, who has been to each U.S. Grand Prix, filed a federal lawsuit Monday in Indianapolis. > > The suit claims Formula One, Michelin tires and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway breached their contract with fans who bought tickets to the race. > > “The basis of the lawsuit is that people didn’t get what they paid to see yesterday, which was a Grand Prix race,” attorney Bill Bock said. > > Bock hopes a judge will turn the case into a class-action lawsuit. He said 50 people had contacted him Monday. > > The lawsuit asks for unspecified damages, including race ticket refunds, travel reimbursement, and punitive damages against Michelin and Formula One. [Boycott renews doubts that Formula One can succeed in U.S.](http://www.wane.com/Global/story.asp?S=3498555) > [@](#): > > Speedway President, Joie Chitwood, says no decision has been made whether to refund ticket prices or whether the race would even return to Indy. > > The fallout also has extended to the online gambling Web site, Sportsbook-dot-com, which says it would refund all bets placed on the drivers who withdrew. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-farce/308931.md?page=3)