# Formula One: The 2009 Championship. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 22, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312 "2009-03-22T03:11:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/141 "2009-05-14T08:58:19Z")
So, specifically, what was incorrect about **History Geek** ’s post, then? Both Ferrari and Renault have indeed threatened to quit if the rules aren’t changed. He said they have threatened to quit if the rules aren’t changed. I can’t see the difference between reality and his post; you, apparently, can drive a semi through the gap. Help us out here. ---
**Author:** ![caligulashorse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@caligulashorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulashorse)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/142 "2009-05-14T12:04:34Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > So, specifically, what was incorrect about **History Geek** ’s post, then? Both Ferrari and Renault have indeed threatened to quit if the rules aren’t changed. He said they have threatened to quit if the rules aren’t changed. I can’t see the difference between reality and his post; you, apparently, can drive a semi through the gap. Help us out here. Ferrari hasn’t said that! They said they MIGHT, not that they WILL, regardless of any “conditionals”. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/143 "2009-05-14T12:07:49Z")
Poppycock. **Renault chairman, Bernard Rey** ([link](http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/may/13/renault-quit-formula-one-budget-cap)): “We remain committed to the sport, but we cannot be involved in a championship operating with different sets of rules, and if such rules are put into effect, we will be forced to pull out at the end of this season.” **Ferrari statement** ([link](http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8044860.stm)): “If the regulations for 2010 will not change, then Ferrari does not intend to enter cars in the next Formula 1 world championship.” And I’m the one with the comprehension problem? ---
**Author:** ![MJinks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@MJinks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MJinks)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/144 "2009-05-14T14:13:24Z")
It’s rather clear to most people. You’re in the wrong here **caligulashorse**. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/145 "2009-05-14T15:34:51Z")
> [@MJinks](#): > > It’s rather clear to most people. You’re in the wrong here **caligulashorse**. > > Sorry. What he said. ---
**Author:** ![History\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b19c9b/32.png) [@History\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/History_Geek)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/146 "2009-05-14T22:42:22Z")
But would you _watch_ if Ferrari and the rest were to possibly-maybe-almost definitely quit? I’m hoping FOTA is able to reach some compromise with the FIA before any teams have to quit. I think everybody involved understand that F1 is an expensive sport. I certainly haven’t seen anything from fans saying they’d like to see F1 teams spend less money. What’s the point of a budget cap really? To make F1 look fiscally responsible during a recession? Come on. We just want to watch the world’s finest drivers push the world’s finest cars as fast as possible. What’s wrong with setting the bar high for getting a team into competition? Hasn’t Formula 1 always been a rich man’s game? [/soapbox] Let’s have a budget cap (if we must), but set it at $200 million. That sort of compromise ought to pacify even Ferrari, who, honestly, aren’t getting their money’s worth this year, whatever they’ve spent. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/147 "2009-05-15T06:44:50Z")
Probably not; privateers are great, but who wants to see a bunch of no-name newbies replace some of the greatest names in F1 history? Not me. But they won’t quit. I guarantee it. A $200m cap wouldn’t really change much, to be honest, particularly if (as per the current proposal) it excludes things like driver salaries. It’s way out of most teams’ reach anyway. I’m not sure any hard figure will work at all; it just opens up the system to being gamed and causes controversy over opening the books. Do we really want to add financial arguments to the current tedious stewarding rows? Better are the ideas they’ve already implemented, such as mandating extended engine life. I think it’s pretty tricky to stop people spending money if they really want to; the issue is to make sure those without masses of it can still compete to an interesting extent. Clearly the two-tier system would be an incredibly crude way of going about it; far too hard to tune, so you’d end up with either the rich bastards or the cheapskates dominating each year as the regs change. I’m not sure what the right answer is, but I certainly don’t think this was it. Cutting down some of the ancillary costs would help, too. They’re going to save money by not shipping refuelling rigs everywhere next year, although Bernie’s ongoing effort to transplant F1 from Europe to Bumfuck, Arabia will probably counteract that. And then, as always, remember that this isn’t really about making the sport look austere in austere times; it’s much more about giving Bernie and Max a lever to avoid sharing more wealth with the teams. Never take anything in this laughably-administrated sport at face value. Edit: our caligulan friend seems awfully quiet… ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/148 "2009-05-15T17:15:00Z")
Just to add my $0.2 to what has already been said, it’s totally absurd to try to implement a two-tier system into F1. Kind of like asking Real Madrid to play with nine men when they play against Osasuna (who’d be allowed 12 on the pitch), because even though they both play in first division, Madrid has ten times the budget. Well, tough – it’s teams like Madrid, ManU, Barsa and Milan that bring in the Big Bucks…and the ratings An F1 with a bunch of no-name teams along with a single engine supplier (say Cosworth) would not be the pinnacle of motor sports but simply another open-wheel F1 feeder – and we already have a few of those, starting with the main one, GP2. OTOH, I am not that worried about it, for as powerful as Mosley and Co might be, they’d be literally nothing without the Big Name teams. F1 without Ferrari, Renault, Bimmer, McLaren, Williams, etc is simply nothing. And everyone knows it. They might be nuts at FIA but I’m sure they are well aware of what they can and can’t do with their sacred cash cow. It’ll all be sorted come the end of the month, and if anything, FOTA will come out stronger from it. Which is a great thing IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/149 "2009-05-15T17:23:36Z")
**caligulashorse**. WTF are you on about? 😕 We’ve good a pretty good thread going here, so I suggest you start your own if you simply want to be a contrarian – which is as far as I’ll say in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/150 "2009-05-15T17:36:51Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > it’s totally absurd to try to implement a two-tier system into F1. Hasn’t that been the case for years? There’ve been 3 or 4 teams that could win, 3 or 4 in the middle, and Arrows and Minardi. IIRC, they’ve had multiple tech standards in the past - for a while, an engine could have more displacement if it didn’t have a turbo, and for another while if the car was heavier … or was that F1 vs. F2? As a fan, I’d be MORE interested if the cars were actually different from each other, not less. Don’t worry about this shit, though - it’s Bernie trying to divide the teams and neutralize their threat to take over. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/151 "2009-05-15T20:21:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Hasn’t that been the case for years? There’ve been 3 or 4 teams that could win, 3 or 4 in the middle, and Arrows and Minardi. No doubt you’re correct. In fact, you could argue as you have that it was a three-tier system. But the important point there is that it wasn’t _artificially_ implemented which is what the proposed [BS capping would do if applied](http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/4/9290.html). You’d have the teams not signing the proposal being handicapped in all sorts of ridiculous ways, so there’d be no point in R&D anyway. An artificially homogenized series with no benefit for brand marketing. Why would Ferrari, Renault, BMW or any other of the high profile teams with actual ties to the consumer market bother to spend their money that way? What would they be marketing as proprietary anyway? Sure it might be “fun” to root for an underdog such as Brawn this season – but from a business POV (and we can’t forget that F1 starts and ends there) it’s simply not viable. Nor would it work in the long run for the fans. Take away the Tifosi alone, and you’ve lost a good 10/15% of the market. Add Macca’s, BMW’s and Renault’s and you’d end up – as **Dead Badger** mentions – running F1 races in expensive, dusty yet empty venues for a few oil-engorged Sheiks and nouveau rich kids in the ME and Asia. F1 without its European fanbase and tradition is not F1. Fullstop. Not elitism mind you, just facts. > [@](#): > > _IIRC, they’ve had multiple tech standards in the past - for a while, an engine could have more displacement if it didn’t have a turbo, and for another while if the car was heavier … or was that F1 vs. F2?_ [FORMULA 1 ENGINES](http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/1283/389/) (this one is for those that want to know the basic differences between series: [Formula One vs IRL vs GP2](http://www.f1technical.net/articles/13)) Nothing I can recall about turbos non-turbos, but certainly within the rules, different teams had considerable differences in sheer HP. You’ll probably remember that the main worry up till '05 (after which the V8 rule and subsequent engine freeze came into effect) was actually _slowing the cars down_, as they were getting out-of-control fast. > [@](#): > > As a fan, I’d be MORE interested if the cars were actually different from each other, not less. Agreed. That’s why I’ve always liked Renault’s ugly-ducklings. > [@](#): > > _Don’t worry about this shit, though - it’s Bernie trying to divide the teams and neutralize their threat to take over._ Just hope it has the exact opposite effect and power shifts to the actual constructors. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/152 "2009-05-16T09:45:59Z")
In the early 80s (I think) when turbochargers were introduced, the rules specified the maximum displacement of an F1 engine was 3.0 litres for a naturally-aspirated engine, or 1.5 litres for an engine with a turbocharger. The turbocharged cars were viable choices for a while, even though the extra plumbing stuck out into the underwing space and impeded the airflow generating the ground effect. (It was during this period that James Hunt referred to Ferraris as “mobile chicanes” while commenting on F1 races, because a flat-12 engine also disrupted airflow and reduced the ground effect that stuck cars to the road, in a way that the Cosworth V8 did not.) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/153 "2009-05-18T00:42:12Z")
Thanks for clearing that up, **MHaye**. Informative post. * * * Meanwhile, the soap/Mexican stand-off/chess match or whatever one chooses to call it, continues to unfold. Here’s the latest: [**Ecclestone: Two-tier will be scrapped**](http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75390) > [@](#): > > Bernie Ecclestone says that although **Friday’s crunch meeting between the teams and the FIA ended in stalemate over the budget cap** , both parties did agree that the controversial two-tier system should not go ahead. > > \ > > Under the current 2010 rules, teams can choose to either adhere to a £40 million budget cap and enjoy greater technical freedom, or continue to spend freely but run to more restrictive regulations, **which some teams have estimated would leave them up to three seconds per lap slower than the capped teams**. > > (the watchyamacallit part 😕) > > \ > > “I think the most important thing that upset everybody, they didn’t like, was this two-tier technical system, so I think it has been agreed that we shouldn’t have that. **We should have just one set of regulations** ,” he told the BBC. > > (Einstein would be proud :rolleyes: ) > > "I think everybody is more or less happy with the budget cap. Just how much. **They’ll go with it higher [than £40 million], maybe it’ll be lower. It’s a case of just sorting it out.** > > (no shit, Sherlock :smack:) – snide comments and highlights mine. More at source without either. So while Friday’s negotiations ended in a stalemate, Bernie “thinks” it will all be fine…by saying now what he apparently didn’t say on Friday. 'bout time these clowns left the circus. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/154 "2009-05-18T18:41:52Z")
The Saga Continues. Update: [**F1 crisis action to resume on Tuesday**](http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/18052009/58/f1-crisis-action-resume-tuesday.html) The Times sounds off: [**Max Mosley and Bernie Ecclestone should go now**](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6313337.ece) * * * Good thing this season is all about the racing… ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/155 "2009-05-19T04:58:43Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Good thing this season is all about the racing… Silly! This season is all about the _diffuser!_ ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/156 "2009-05-19T05:05:58Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Silly! This season is all about the _diffuser!_ and KERS and super-soft tires and all the artificial rules. Time for new leadership. I’m OK with the no-refueling rule that’s proposed. Didn’t they just bring the refueling option in to make everyone more competitive with Williams years ago anyhow? On the plus side, Monaco is my favourite race of the season, lack of overtaking be damned. ---
**Author:** ![History\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b19c9b/32.png) [@History\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/History_Geek)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/157 "2009-05-19T22:12:57Z")
There’s a _race_ this weekend? Well, that’ll give me something to watch if I can’t get coverage of all the FIA/FOTA meetings! Why is practice on Thursday instead of Friday for Monaco? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/158 "2009-05-20T18:33:37Z")
> [@History\_Geek](#): > > …Why is practice on Thursday instead of Friday for Monaco? Tradition and part of the glamor. All sorts of parties take place on Thursday night, many with the team principals as well as drivers. Wouldn’t be the first time you’d see a picture of someone like Kimmi wasted on a luxury yacht come Friday. Think of it as a sort of holiday for high price call girls and super-rich moguls. 😉 [**More here**](http://www.f1grandprixtours.com/mon-formula-1-monaco-circuit-info-racing-program.php). * * * The continuing soap seems to have taken a turn for the worse as Ferrari was denied its appeal by the French Court. Looks like the legal battles will continue to the detriment of the sport. A couple of high profile drivers are already sounding rather pessimistic about future outcomes. [**Alonso worried F1 could disappear over cap fight**](http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/2009-05-20-1981615208_x.htm) > [@](#): > > “I’m worried that F1 might disappear,” the Renault driver said Wednesday ahead of the Monaco Grand Prix. “If seven teams go, Formula One disappears. With unknown drivers, it’s over. You’ll lose the 10 best drivers in the world.” [**Raikkonen pledges future to Ferrari**](http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75448) > [@](#): > > "For me, if Ferrari is not in F1 nor any other big team like BMW or McLaren, it is not good for F1. They are the teams that make F1 and if you change the teams for other teams, new teams that come from GP2 or somewhere else, then it is not the same any more. > > “F1 for me is all about the big teams, we race together and try to be the best. That is my opinion, but everybody has their own ideas.” > > Red Bull Racing’s Mark Webber also said today that he does not think F1 would be the same sport without Ferrari. > > “I hope the sport is in reasonable shape next year in terms of teams competing,” said Webber. “There’s a lot of water to go under the bridge yet and some serious egos involved, so we’ll see.” Not looking good. ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/159 "2009-05-25T14:56:18Z")
Not much excitement in the race. A bit processional but I still like it. Monaco is a beautiful race. I lot of teams have been rolling out changes but mostly in the form of changing their rear wings or diffusers to match what Brawn GP have been doing already. Even Ferrari’s new front wing was designed to help channel air to the diffuser better rather than add downforce. Meanwhile Brawn are charging ahead making little tweaks and changes to stay ahead of everyone. It was nice to see Ferrari back in the points again. Even if Brawn is running away with the championship so far there are some interesting battles going on behind them. ---
**Author:** ![Albrecht\_Durer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ccd318/32.png) [@Albrecht\_Durer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Albrecht_Durer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312/160 "2009-05-26T22:40:41Z")
I was super hopeful for Nakajima at Monaco. He qualified at tenth! His highest of the season, I think. And he was in a solid tenth on the last lap and…right into a wall. Man. It’s hard being a Nakajima fan. I thought it was a okay race. No real excitement. I was surprised that there were no penalties for the chicane cutting. According to the SPEEDtv announcers, all the drivers were seriously warned about it before the race. Despite those warnings, no penalties. I think they should have been punished, as often as those corners were getting cut. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/formula-one-the-2009-championship/490312.md?page=9)