# Fort Hood Shooter Hasan: Coward? \[edited title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2009, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305 "2009-11-12T12:44:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/81 "2009-11-18T15:30:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > When you drop bombs on cities, you don’t have to try to kill innocent people. It’s going to happen. > Again - and this is in no way a defense of terrorism - this is demonstrably untrue. What’s the purpose of setting a city on fire from the air if not killing innocent people and breaking the will of their leadership? I’ve said this before and no doubt will have to say it again - you drop a 500lb bomb on a civilian compound in the middle of an Afghan village and you fully intend to kill every man, woman and child in the blast radius. You don’t get to cry ‘oops’ on every dead person apart from the ‘intended’ target. That’s not a comment on the morality - I can envisage many situations where I’d give the order - but let’s call a spade a spade and not pretend these deaths are some sort of accident. They are not. In these situations we care more about killing the target than not killing the rest but once that order to drop/fire is given, in the absence of magic weapons, we ‘intend’ to kill all of them. Just like a suicide truck bomb aimed at a police station in Iraq intends to kill anyone in the area. No ‘oops’ there either. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/82 "2009-11-18T15:47:16Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I’ve said this before and no doubt will have to say it again - you drop a 500lb bomb on a civilian compound in the middle of an Afghan village and you fully intend to kill every man, woman and child in the blast radius. > > You don’t get to cry ‘oops’ on every dead person apart from the ‘intended’ target. I might phrase that a little differently and say you’re _responsible_ for the deaths, because you knew they were going to be a consequence of the bombing, even if it was not your intent to kill everyone in the area. But it’s not an accident. It’s a tradeoff someone has decided is acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/83 "2009-11-18T15:56:12Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > That’s not a comment on the morality - I can envisage many situations where I’d give the order - but let’s call a spade a spade and not pretend these deaths are some sort of accident. They are not. Absolutely agree with this. It’s rather more offensive to get into contortions trying to pretend otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/84 "2009-11-18T16:27:58Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > You call it as you like,I will call it as it seems to me. I agree to dis-agree. > [@monavis](#): > > You can think as you wish…I can disagree as I wish. Did you mean to post this thread in IMHO originally? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/85 "2009-11-18T16:43:47Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Did you mean to post this thread in IMHO originally? It was in IMHO originally. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/86 "2009-11-18T17:24:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It was in IMHO originally. Ah, OK. Yeah, that happened to me once, and led to a somewhat unexpected level of scrutiny of my opinion, which hadn’t actually been written to be a cogent argument. I therefore have a bit more sympathy for **monavis** here (while still disagreeing to an extent with his/her opinion). ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/87 "2009-11-18T17:56:29Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > You call it as you like,I will call it as it seems to me. I agree to dis-agree. I don’t agree. This may be merely a theoretical argument, but the results of it, and the argument itself, is actually quite important. If we’re too slipshod with the terms we throw around, then it can lead people to think we’re slipshod with our other terms. If we call an evil person a coward when they might not be, then people who realise we might be wrong to call them a coward are going to start questioning whether we’re also wrong to call them evil. By showing that our judgement is flawed, people might think our judgement is flawed across the board. > [@](#): > > Even with their protecive vechicles they are in danger and risk getting killed..bin Laden doesn’t, he has some one else do it for him. So do heads of government, in general. And bin Laden’s at considerably more risk of being killed than many heads of government. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/88 "2009-11-18T18:10:35Z")
I think the discussion back on page 1 about whether he’s already dead is ample evidence of _that._ ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/89 "2009-11-19T12:43:14Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I don’t agree. This may be merely a theoretical argument, but the results of it, and the argument itself, is actually quite important. If we’re too slipshod with the terms we throw around, then it can lead people to think we’re slipshod with our other terms. If we call an evil person a coward when they might not be, then people who realise we might be wrong to call them a coward are going to start questioning whether we’re also wrong to call them evil. By showing that our judgement is flawed, people might think our judgement is flawed across the board. So do heads of government, in general. And bin Laden’s at considerably more risk of being killed than many heads of government. If a government has been attacked, or is helping a smaller government that has been attacked it is a whole different story. They are trying to save lives as much as possible. bin Laden is having people kill for his ideals, not his government, who he doesn’t seem to really care about. He isn’t trying to do any thing to his own government that wants the USA in there. It seems to be the consenses that most people do not think of bin Laden as a coward and I would give them the right to think that way…to me any one who murders some one, or is responsible for a murder is a coward,(just as if one hired a hitman). bin Laden’s killings are not going to remove the USA from Saudi Arabia. If we were as inhumane as bin Laden and other despots etc. We could drop an atomic bomb and wipe out the whole country..Our aim is to stop the killings. He may think he can thumb his nose at us, but it is only because we are a humane nation that have no intent to rule the world. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/90 "2009-11-19T13:20:07Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If a government has been attacked, or is helping a smaller government that has been attacked it is a whole different story. They are trying to save lives as much as possible. bin Laden is having people kill for his ideals, not his government, who he doesn’t seem to really care about. He isn’t trying to do any thing to his own government that wants the USA in there. What the bloody fuck does Bin Laden’s relationship with his government have to do with this? **In any case, you’re wrong** , Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula was just mounting raids or the like into Saudi this past month that ended up provoking Saudi airstrikes into Yemen. American press may not cover that, but other English lang press does. This leaves aside the bizarre assertion Allied forces are “save lives as much as possible.” I submit if you were on the end of those bombs such pious formulations and excuse making would feel rather less convincing. “'e chopped of me leg he did, but ‘e didn’t _mean it_, was swingin’ 'is mighty great sword at the black night, nice bloke eh?” > [@](#): > > It seems to be the consenses that most people do not think of bin Laden as a coward and I would give them the right to think that way…to me any one who murders some one, or is responsible for a murder is a coward,(just as if one hired a hitman). bin Laden’s killings are not going to remove the USA from Saudi Arabia. Well, you’re using coward only as an empty term of abuse and not in any sense related to its fundamental English language meaning. That’s mere name calling. > [@](#): > > …but it is only because we are a humane nation that have no intent to rule the world. Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa… Oh that is rich. Really. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/91 "2009-11-19T13:24:16Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If we were as inhumane as bin Laden and other despots etc. We could drop an atomic bomb and wipe out the whole country. Um, no. We couldn’t wipe out a whole country with one bomb. Nor could we kill Bin Laden with one because we don’t know where he is. And even trying would make us quite a bit worse than him. In fact, we’ve already killed far more innocent people than he did. So wrong on all counts. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/92 "2009-11-19T14:33:12Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > **In any case, you’re wrong** , Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula was just mounting raids or the like into Saudi this past month that ended up provoking Saudi airstrikes into Yemen. > > American press may not cover that, but other English lang press does. Not questioning you, but can I get a cite for this? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/93 "2009-11-19T14:44:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not questioning you, but can I get a cite for this? Let me look for airstrikes, but anyway: [http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSLD436393](http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSLD436393) > **[BBC News - Saudis find 'al-Qaeda' arms cache](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8336838.stm)** > > Saudi officials say they have discovered a large arms cache near Riyadh linked to al-Qaeda militants. Rather clear Al Qaeda still is trying on the Saudi regime. * * * I was thinking of this: [http://www.miamiherald.com/news/world/AP/story/1319591.html?storylink=mirelated](http://www.miamiherald.com/news/world/AP/story/1319591.html?storylink=mirelated) (from a US paper the particular article, but other articles suggest it was not Al Qaeda). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/94 "2009-11-19T14:52:48Z")
More on the Al Quaeda attacks than the airstrikes. Those’ll do. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/95 "2009-11-19T19:40:19Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If a government has been attacked, or is helping a smaller government that has been attacked it is a whole different story. They are trying to save lives as much as possible. bin Laden is having people kill for his ideals, not his government, who he doesn’t seem to really care about. He isn’t trying to do any thing to his own government that wants the USA in there. Well, you’ve just dismissed the American revolution there too, so i’d tend to suggest you’d want to try again. > [@](#): > > It seems to be the consenses that most people do not think of bin Laden as a coward and I would give them the right to think that way…to me any one who murders some one, or is responsible for a murder is a coward,(just as if one hired a hitman). bin Laden’s killings are not going to remove the USA from Saudi Arabia. That seems like an odd definition to me, and far too much of a loose one. > [@](#): > > If we were as inhumane as bin Laden and other despots etc. We could drop an atomic bomb and wipe out the whole country..Our aim is to stop the killings. He may think he can thumb his nose at us, but it is only because we are a humane nation that have no intent to rule the world. Well, I believe the intent is to stop the killings of U.S. or allied people. There’s plenty of places in the world where killings occur that haven’t been dealt with in some way. It’s more “stop the killings, and also ensure the system in place is friendly to us”. Nevertheless, while I don’t deny that you could certainly call bin Laden many bad things, cowardice isn’t necessarily one of them. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/96 "2009-11-19T21:51:47Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > AIf blowing oneself up for a cause is good why isn’t Osama blowing himself up? If waging war in Irak was good (or even if it wasn’t), why weren’t Bush or Cheney there, gun in hand, instead of in Washington DC? Leaders are rarely found on the front line, nowadays. So, it’s not incoherent to tell others to blow themselves up, or charge into gunfire while not doing so yourself (or at least it hasn’t been perceived that way since the middle ages) ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/97 "2009-11-19T21:57:00Z")
The way some have to call “cowards” people who willingly face death (certain death, even) for a purpose is just weird. :dubious: Actually non sentical given the meaning of the word “coward” ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/98 "2009-11-19T22:05:16Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Their intent was to defeat the enemy they did not try to delibertly kill innocent people. Sorry, but the intent of the bombing of Dresden (and other similar bombings) was precisely to kill as many as possible, and cause as much destruction as possible, organized in such a way as to maximize the damages (creation of a firestorm, second raid to kill firemen in action, etc…) and with the goal of terrorizing the population and so breaking its morale. They were deliberate attacks against the civilian population, nothing to do with what is called nowadays “collateral damage”. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/99 "2009-11-20T00:10:59Z")
Hasan was troubled and a bit nuts. The army was well aware of it and they discussed ways to get rid of him. They shipped him to Ft. Hood because it has the largest program dealing with mental health and they were understaffed. They were hoping it would work out. Apparently it did not. Many organizations move their troubles rather than deal with them. The Catholic Church paid billions because of it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305/100 "2009-11-20T03:47:48Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > He may have been suicidal, but now I notice he has hired a lawyer to defend himself, and he apparently thought he could kill a lot of unarmed people before he was caught. Let me try again. Imagine for a moment someone who is 100% courageous and also wants to kill a lot of people. With me so far? Hypothesize someone who (a) isn’t cowardly, and (b) would like to kill lots of people. Now figure he thinks he can kill a lot of unarmed people before he gets stopped, and thinks he’d probably kill _ **fewer** _ people before getting caught if he starts with, y’know, armed people. Let’s say he’s not afraid of getting shot; he simply wants to kill a lot of people. What would he do? > [@](#): > > It seems it was his intent to kill even more as so many were injured. Yes, that’s exactly the sort of thing I want you to build your hypothesis around: figure he intends to kill lots and lots of people, and also figure that cowardice simply doesn’t enter into his calculations; he merely wants to kill a lot of people. In what ways can he improve the odds? > [@](#): > > Notice he went into a room full of people he knew was unarmed and expected to escape. Like _ **that,** _ say. A shooter who’s somewhat cowardly might do likewise to improve his odds of avoiding stuff he fears, but never mind that now; given someone who (a) is not at all cowardly, but (b) wants to kill a lot of people, wouldn’t he pick unarmed targets and try to maximize his chances of escape solely to further his goal of killing lots of people? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fort-hood-shooter-hasan-coward-edited-title/517305.md?page=6)