# Fouls in Basketball should be decline-able - discuss **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 28, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072 "2010-03-28T01:15:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/21 "2010-03-29T08:17:51Z")
The idea I had just yesterday that I’m kind of liking is to keep everything as it is now, but have a foul run off the remainder of the shot clock from the game clock. This could be done while they line up for the free throws. It wouldn’t even need to be limited to the end of a game. ---
**Author:** ![ekweizn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7c8e57/32.png) [@ekweizn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekweizn)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/22 "2010-03-29T09:24:25Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > The idea I had just yesterday that I’m kind of liking is to keep everything as it is now, but have a foul run off the remainder of the shot clock from the game clock. This could be done while they line up for the free throws. It wouldn’t even need to be limited to the end of a game. I think this gives too much incentive for teams that are ahead to foul. A team up by 10 with three minutes left could just foul every time its opponent gets the ball–this seems much more awful than the current state of affairs. Also, this places way too much faith in refereeing and will shorten the game excessively, in my opinion. My suggestion would be when a team commits a certain number of team fouls (say 7 for the NBA and 12 for college), in addition to free throws, the opponent gets the choice of running 5 or maybe 10 seconds off the clock. This gives the team who is behind some more incentive to try to force a turnover, rather than fouling. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/23 "2010-03-29T09:44:48Z")
> [@ekweizn](#): > > I think this gives too much incentive for teams that are ahead to foul. A team up by 10 with three minutes left could just foul every time its opponent gets the ball–this seems much more awful than the current state of affairs. Also, this places way too much faith in refereeing and will shorten the game excessively, in my opinion. Fair point. I could tweak the idea to be better, but that would require different rules for who fouls and when, which isn’t elegant enough to be practical. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/24 "2010-03-29T14:55:26Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Soccer’s much more of a contact sport than basketball. They tackle, mostly legally. They jostle for position. It’s a rough game. And the field is HUGE comparatively. > > Racquetball is turn-based. When it’s your turn, the other guy has to yield all of the ground to you. When it’s his turn, the opposite is true. > > Basketball, on the other hand, doesn’t have that kind of structure. If you tag the other guy, it’s a foul. Lame. Is there another sport besides basketball where there’s quite a bit of contact, the players are huge, no pads are worn and its played on a surface that has no shock absorption at all? Some of these basketball players fall onto the floor from pretty high up in the air, and hit the court damn hard. To suggest that basketball isn’t a contact sport or that its somehow “unmanly” is just silly. And as to the OP, man, I don’t know. Fouling is intrinsic to the strategy of the game. You’d never have comebacks like “The Miracle Minute” (Duke v Maryland) without it. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/25 "2010-03-29T18:31:55Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Fouling is intrinsic to the strategy of the game. This is what bothers some of us. It is impossible to reconcile philosphically. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/26 "2010-03-29T18:34:04Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > This is what bothers some of us. It is impossible to reconcile philosphically. I know, because in all other sports the concept of a “foul” is something to be always avoided, because “fouls” are “bad” and penalize a player and/or the player’s team. This is mostly true in basketball as well, with a few exceptions. I just don’t see the big deal in why people would want to go through great lengths to try to change it…it works as it is. ETA: although there are “good fouls” and “bad fouls” in other sports too…like a DB intentionally getting a PI call on a deep pass in football to prevent a long touchdown… ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/27 "2010-03-29T19:10:04Z")
Yes, but 1st & goal on the 1 is seen as a legitimate disincentive to interfere. As is the spot foul on a long ball in general. How often do intentional fouls happen in football? I typically see my Giants do 1 or 2 per season. If I could stomach watching the Knicks and they weren’t just mailing it in, I bet there’d be way more than 5 to 10 intentional fouls per season. (NBA season = NFL season \* 5) No need for irony quotes. All fouls are indeed bad, by definition. The only exception is basketball. Whether or not having some fouls be good “works” is a matter of opinion. Many feel, as I do, that anytime a foul is a good thing that means something is wrong with the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/28 "2010-03-29T19:14:47Z")
> [@dudemanjack](#): > > So what you are saying is if a team has a lead and the ball with \< 24 seconds left we pretty much decide the game is over. The team with the ball would still have to pass, dribble, move, or shoot at some points during the last 24 seconds, though. The five-second rule would obviously still be in force. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/29 "2010-03-29T19:37:52Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > How would you put this into practice? Make the offensive team have to run infinite inbounds plays just to burn a little clock? If that was how it worked coaches would just take the shots anyway rather than have to risk a heavily defended inbounds situation over and over and risk an outright turnover, especially when you consider that the defensive team can just foul at will in the attempt to get a steal. I think that you’d still have to add a foul to the player’s total, even if it is declined. Maybe disqualify players after 2 fouls in the final 2 minutes? In any case, while fouling is part of modern basketball strategy, it has always seemed to be outside the spirit of the game. It’s more like the result of a poorly thought-out system of rules. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/30 "2010-03-29T19:54:36Z")
I really don’t understand why lining up for a foul shot like the diagram below would not solve some of the fouling issues. The X’s are the team that got fouled and the Y’s are the team that did the fouling. The X’s would shoot the ball, and they also have the premium rebounding position in case Team X misses the foul shot. ```auto X Y Y | | |O |X | | X Y Y ``` ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/31 "2010-03-29T20:05:27Z")
> [@notfrommensa](#): > > I really don’t understand why lining up for a foul shot like the diagram below would not solve some of the fouling issues. The X’s are the team that got fouled and the Y’s are the team that did the fouling. The X’s would shoot the ball, and they also have the premium rebounding position in case Team X misses the foul shot. > > ```auto > > X Y Y > | | > |O |X > | | > X Y Y > > ``` Nice artwork. It really wouldn’t be appropriate for the whole game, though. Plus, it would give way too much of an advantage to the losing team if they’re the team that was fouled. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/32 "2010-03-29T20:14:37Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Fouling is intrinsic to the strategy of the game. You’d never have comebacks like “The Miracle Minute” (Duke v Maryland) without it. Agreed. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the rules as is. It’s just a part of the game, like it or not, and I don’t see anything unfair about it(and this is coming from a Maryland alum and faithful fan). Sometimes it results in outcomes you don’t like, but I don’t see anything intrinsically unfair about the rules as written, and frankly I don’t see how changing them would be any improvement(and yes I am well aware and agree that it can get tedious and boring at the end, but the whole point of that is it gives the team that’s down a glimmer of hope, and I don’t see anything wrong with that. Games can and have been decided in those last 10-15 seconds.). ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/33 "2010-03-29T20:26:06Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > The team with the ball would still have to pass, dribble, move, or shoot at some points during the last 24 seconds, though. The five-second rule would obviously still be in force. No they wouldn’t, all they would need to do is inbound the ball and hold it. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/34 "2010-03-29T20:30:48Z")
> [@Disheavel](#): > > I can’t think of a time that I have ever seen where fouling was a good strategy and think it is just what they do because everyone is so trained. Jim Valvano at NC State pretty much won a NC in 1983 by using this strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/35 "2010-03-29T20:37:08Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > No they wouldn’t, all they would need to do is inbound the ball and hold it. Well, assuming there’s a 24 second clock, yes, but I think **Duke** probably meant in college, and wasn’t thinking that we were necessarily talking about an NBA game. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/36 "2010-03-29T20:55:22Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > I think that you’d still have to add a foul to the player’s total, even if it is declined. It probably would be more precise to say that the free throws would be declined (rather than the foul) in favor of possession of the ball. I seem to recall that at one time this was a rule in international basketball. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/37 "2010-03-29T21:07:12Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > No they wouldn’t, all they would need to do is inbound the ball and hold it. They still have to get it over midcourt ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/38 "2010-03-30T00:19:41Z")
You’re eight points down with a minute and a half left, and the other team has the ball. You have two choices: (A) Go into a full court press, contesting every pass and every dribble, and hope to force turnovers. (B) Foul as soon as the ball is inbounded. In the cold light of statistics, strategy B is probably better. I say that because most coaches choose B most of the time, and they know more about basketball than I do. But strategy A is also viable, and I have seen it work, and it’s _a million times more entertaining to watch_. Tweak the rules to make A the strategy of choice, and you make the game better. And, it still wouldn’t be impossible to come back in the last two minutes. At worst, it might be a little more difficult. But that’s OK, there’s a reason why you play the first 38 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/39 "2010-03-30T03:12:16Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Agreed. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the rules as is. It’s just a part of the game, like it or not, and I don’t see anything unfair about it(and this is coming from a Maryland alum and faithful fan). Sometimes it results in outcomes you don’t like, but I don’t see anything intrinsically unfair about the rules as written, and frankly I don’t see how changing them would be any improvement(and yes I am well aware and agree that it can get tedious and boring at the end, but the whole point of that is it gives the team that’s down a glimmer of hope, and I don’t see anything wrong with that. Games can and have been decided in those last 10-15 seconds.). If there’s nothing intrinsically bad about fouling, then why not have a blanket rule that states if you’re down by less than twelve with less than 4 minutes remaining (or whatever figures you want to put in) you can tell the ref to continuously, automatically, and with minimal clock burn off afford you shooting fouls as you gain possession of the ball. Of course, that sounds patently ridiculous. Because it is. Because committing penalties shouldn’t be a valid way to win a game. (I mean, don’t get me wrong, I understand that it’s a \*\*significantly \*\* better proposition for those people who set the rules - the amount of TV money they can sell for those last 3 minutes ensures that this won’t ever change - but let’s not kid ourselves, it’s a stupid fuckin feature of the game) ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072/40 "2010-03-30T11:13:35Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > I don’t see anything unfair about it […] I don’t see anything intrinsically unfair about the rules as written Nobody said anything about it being unfair. It’s obviously _fair_, but that’s irrelevant to the complaint. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fouls-in-basketball-should-be-decline-able-discuss/534072.md?page=3)