# Foundation: TV series discussion (open spoilers; comparison to the books allowed) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, apple\ **Created:** [September 25, 2021, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328 "2021-09-25T13:28:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2023, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/201 "2023-10-01T21:17:30Z")
This is where I ended up as well. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2023, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/202 "2023-10-01T21:35:59Z")
Big fan of the source material. But am enjoying the show on its own merits. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2023, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/203 "2023-10-01T21:44:57Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’ve always respected Asimov’s place in SF history, but I’ve never particularly enjoyed his writing. I have no problems at all with the series. Asimov was the Bob Dylan of science fiction. By which I mean, he came up with incredible ideas and concepts that would have been much better executed by someone else. Just a terrible, terrible writer. I’ve been re-reading “I Robot” recently and the prose is absolutely painful. Like middle-schooler level. But also some of the best ideas ever. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/204 "2023-10-01T23:04:25Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > Just a terrible, terrible writer. I’ve been re-reading “I Robot” recently and the prose is absolutely painful. Like middle-schooler level. But also some of the best ideas ever. This is true, but it’s also what made him so accessible to me as a kid, decades after he wrote. So I’m thankful for that! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/205 "2023-10-02T20:25:52Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > Asimov was the Bob Dylan of science fiction. By which I mean, he came up with incredible ideas and concepts that would have been much better executed by someone else. Asimov had a brilliant mind and was terrific at extrapolation, but he wasn’t all that imaginative. IMHO, he just couldn’t take the leaps of faith the truly great SF writers took Remember, he had characters in Foundation using microfilm - a medium that became obsolete in Asimov’s own lifetime - 15,000 years in the future. Maybe I’m being too harsh on him. But then, I’ve always been more of a New Wave fan myself. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/206 "2023-10-02T21:06:42Z")
For all his acknowledged brilliance, when it came to SF Asimov strikes me as primarily as a '30s-to-'50s pulp writer: get the story done (if for no reason than to get it out of his head) and move on to the next project. (As far as the original trilogy is concerned, the most egregious characterizations are those of Preem Palver — at least the _persona_ he takes on outside his primary role — and his wife. Having two characters in what was once the center of the Galactic Empire talking and behaving as if they slipped into a time warp from the mid-20th-century Garment District just grated on my nerves. _Oy_.) ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/207 "2024-03-10T17:45:18Z")
I just finished the last episode of the second season and agree with much of what others have said. It’s pretty good SF, especially for TV, but bears little resemblance to the source material other than reusing names and the broad concept of a slowly collapsing galactic empire. > [@abcdefghij](#): > > Still, there were some fundamental concepts that this production didn’t just ignore; it completely abused. …The whole treatment of Demerzel just kicks the laws of robotics (including the 0th) in the ass. All-in-all, I just find the motivations and methods of most of the characters completely at odds with their namesakes. I’d have enjoyed it a lot more of I hadn’t had any expectations. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I think when they make TV shows of books like Foundation they think they have to dumb it down and it suffers for it. > > How many people will get the Zeroth law? Not many I suspect. They’d have to grok the original laws to even get there and I doubt most would get that much. They actually made a point in the show that robots used to follow the three laws of robotics, but Demerzel said they no longer did. This was a disastrous change, IMHO. It instantly makes Demerzel terrifying in all the wrong ways and breaks all connection to anything Asimov would have written. Fundamental to his stories was that it was impossible for the three laws to removed from robots’ programming. Instead of saying that the three laws no longer applied, I think it would have been better to bring up the Zeroth law. A simple description would have sufficed…you wouldn’t even have to enumerate it, like simply saying that Demerzel had a higher obligation to humanity as a whole. On a related note I did have a few questions: - How did Cleon I come up with a chip that would modify Demerzel’s programming, when no robots had existed for thousands of years? - Why did Demerzel allow Cleon I to install the chip? She was no longer immobilized or imprisoned. Also, as the last episode unfolded, I thought the only way out for Dawn (who had nominally been placed in charge) was for him and Sareth to announce their engagement, and immediately order that Demerzel be arrested and/or obliterated by blaster fire. Dawn knew that she had betrayed Dusk and was a danger to him. I see no reason that Demerzel and the replacement Cleon clones would allow a Dawn pretender and the Queen of the Cloud Dominion to escape unmolested. With that said, you do end up with this twisted situation in which Demerzel is compelled to continue the Cleon dynasty, who are really just her puppets, all of whom are controlled by the dead hand of Cleon I. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2025, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/208 "2025-07-13T04:43:05Z")
> [@robby](#): > > They actually made a point in the show that robots used to follow the three laws of robotics, but Demerzel said they no longer did. This was a disastrous change, IMHO. It instantly makes Demerzel terrifying in all the wrong ways and breaks all connection to anything Asimov would have written. Fundamental to his stories was that it was impossible for the three laws to removed from robots’ programming. > > Instead of saying that the three laws no longer applied, I think it would have been better to bring up the Zeroth law. A simple description would have sufficed…you wouldn’t even have to enumerate it, like simply saying that Demerzel had a higher obligation to humanity as a whole. I just watched the first episode of Season 3, and am pleasantly surprised to see the show explicitly enumerate not just the three laws, but the Zeroth law as well. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2025, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/209 "2025-07-14T16:01:53Z")
So I watched the first 2 seasons of this earlier this year, and just watched episode 1 of season 3, and I’m still scratching my head. It’s good TV, but the tenuous connection to, and frequent utter opposition to, Asimov’s work drives me crazy. Why did they get rid of the Mule being disguised as Magnifico, the sad jester/clown character? He was fantastic in the books. And having done that, why did they make the Mule a murderous psychopath? In the books it was hammered into you that he didn’t need to kill people, he could just convert them to love him. Why murder thousands of soldiers and destroy multiple ships belonging to a planet you’re literally taking over right now? Why force the warlord of Kalgan to shoot himself when you can just make him a loyal subject and use his talents? It’s as if an Asimov super-fan got really stoned, and spent 6 hours explaining the Foundation series to an MCU writer, also stoned, and he wrote the script when he sobered up the next day. ---
**Author:** ![Seydell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Seydell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seydell)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2025, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/210 "2025-07-14T17:37:50Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > In the books it was hammered into you that he didn’t need to kill people, he could just convert them to love him. Why murder thousands of soldiers and destroy multiple ships belonging to a planet you’re literally taking over right now? My guess is they have a special effects budget they need to spend. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2025, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/211 "2025-07-15T00:00:16Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > It’s good TV, but the tenuous connection to, and frequent utter opposition to, Asimov’s work drives me crazy From the beginning ive approached this show not as Asimiov’s story, but just as a good sci fi series with some similar concepts. That way i can enjoy it as it is. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2025, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/212 "2025-07-15T12:46:36Z")
Honestly, that’s why I think the Empire Dawn/Day/Dusk story is the best part, it’s made up from whole cloth so I don’t compare it to Asimov’s original works. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2025, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/213 "2025-07-15T13:42:49Z")
100% agree ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2025, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/214 "2025-07-15T14:55:24Z")
Also agreed. While I could accept Salvor Hardin being female (especially considering the era in which the Asimov was writing), finding out that she was ‘Warden of Terminus’ stretched my credulity as far as the books was concerned; being told that the Emperor was a trio of clones of the original Cleon, while intriguing in itself, snapped it. From then on Asimov’s Foundation was merely a framework on which to hang the producers’ narrative. As for the Mule, I can imagine a story conference: “Now let’s talk about the Mule. He’s a damaged character, resentful of his appearance and society’s reaction, so he has a somewhat understandable grudge against the galaxy and everyone in it — except for one woman who shows him kindness. We’ll show this by … oh, hell, let’s just make him a Generic Psychopath™ and be done with it.” Perhaps his backstory will be fleshed out in future episodes, but I wouldn’t bet on it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2025, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/215 "2025-07-15T15:50:39Z")
Or maybe that’s what they want us to think. I’m just saying - a powerful telepath like the Mule can make people think he looks like however he wants. I’ll be watching any and all new characters very carefully. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2025, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/216 "2025-07-15T16:41:57Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m just saying - a powerful telepath like the Mule can make people think he looks like however he wants. I’ll be watching any and all new characters very carefully. That’s not how he was described in the books though. He couldn’t read thoughts, he read & controlled emotions. There was no indication he could project a different appearance into other people’s minds. If he could read thoughts (novel spoiler) Bayta killing Ebling before he revealed the location of the Second Foundation would be pointless, Magnifico would have just read his thoughts before Ebling even summoned them. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2025, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/217 "2025-07-15T16:58:55Z")
But the telepaths last season could make themselves look like other people - for instance, one of them appeared as Salvor’s boyfriend. I’m sure the Mule will have similar powers. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2025, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/218 "2025-07-15T17:27:32Z")
I had forgotten that. So it’s just more of the “we can improve on Asimov’s masterwork” mindset the writers have. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2025, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/219 "2025-07-15T17:43:06Z")
The same “Masterwork” that had people using microfilm - a medium made obsolete in Asimov’s own lifetime - 15,000 years in the future? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/220 "2025-07-25T16:39:59Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Why did they get rid of the Mule being disguised as Magnifico, the sad jester/clown character? He was fantastic in the books. And having done that, why did they make the Mule a murderous psychopath? In the books it was hammered into you that he didn’t need to kill people, he could just convert them to love him. Why murder thousands of soldiers and destroy multiple ships belonging to a planet you’re literally taking over right now? Why force the warlord of Kalgan to shoot himself when you can just make him a loyal subject and use his talents? So - Are we happy now? The person we think is the Mule - who person who thinks he is the Mule - is obviously just some pirate boss under the Mule’s control. The whole thing has been a misdirection so we think the Mule is a violent warlord, when in fact he the sad jester/clown Magnifico. Well played, show. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328.md?page=12)