# Foundation: TV series discussion (open spoilers; comparison to the books allowed) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, apple\ **Created:** [September 25, 2021, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328 "2021-09-25T13:28:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2025, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/241 "2025-08-04T11:23:26Z")
I think I am missing something. How and to whom had Mavon betrayed Day? Demerzel didn’t seem to know Day was making a run for it. Dawn is clearly clueless. Dusk? ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2025, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/242 "2025-08-04T13:05:58Z")
Yeah, that didn’t seem particularly clear to me, either. With all the technology they have, why would Mavon need to flash his lights? Like they wouldn’t have satellites or drones or whatever watching them if this was some sort of setup? Or if he wasn’t signaling anyone, how is flashing the lights a poker-style tell that he is going to betray El Empireino (I’m not into the whole brevity thing)? ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2025, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/243 "2025-08-04T14:23:59Z")
Han Pritcher is a member of the Second Foundation? The writers are _clearly_ fucking with Asimov fans for their own amusement. Maybe I’ll just FF over those parts and only watch the Empire parts. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/244 "2025-08-15T06:53:59Z")
And unless the writers are playing 15-dimensional chess, Magnifico is not the Mule. In other news: My, my … Demerzel do have a temper. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/245 "2025-08-15T20:57:24Z")
I’m not very bothered by the fact that the show is very loosely inspired by the source material. It is fun as a separate thing. But last weeks bit with Gaal being arranging things so that The Mule destroys a whole planet full of people? Empire is thinks he’s built to be cold and calculating but his killing the woman in the closet is more Andor level … Gaal is a different level of destruction in the service of … goals. Why had Hari never told Gaal about what Demerzel is ? ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/246 "2025-08-15T22:19:22Z")
MHO, the Mule arc is far and away the most radical — and offensive — departure from the books (up to now). Even making the Emperor a triumvirate of clones pales in comparison. At least Preem Palver is an improvement, even though he’s a deaf-mute. As I said earlier, having him (and his wife) talk and act like refugees from the mid-20th century Garment District was ridiculous. _Oy_. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2025, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/247 "2025-08-16T11:44:51Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > And unless the writers are playing 15-dimensional chess, Magnifico is not the Mule. Why do you assume that? The faux-Mule obviously thinks he’s the real thing, and has some of the real Mule’s memories - specifically, those of Gaal - but we’d never actually seen him exercise any powers without Magnifico being on the same planet. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2025, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/248 "2025-08-16T18:36:11Z")
Pouring one out for Brother Dawn. I liked this one - he was stupid but he had Moxie. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2025, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/249 "2025-08-16T21:19:55Z")
Hmm, point taken. I don’t believe he was at the Vault when all hell broke loose, but he did play the Visi-Sonor for the Foundation high muckety-mucks and may have planted some post-hypnotic suggestions then. Same (offscreen) for the initial encounter with the Baron. Which is entirely contrary to canon — for want of a better word — which IIRC holds that the Mule can only affect emotions, not change personalities / compel actions / plant suggestions (though once under emotional control the subject would be more willing to follow orders). And while the Visi-Sonor gives him the ability to affect a larger audience. he has to be in the presence of the subject. But we all know that canon was dead and starting to smell five minutes into S1E1. Anyway, I retract the first part of my post (the prediction), though anything is possible with this crew. The second part, regarding Demerzel, stands. (Something I — being somewhat slow on the uptake — noticed at the beginning of S3 but actually happened in S2: during the opening credits in S1, there’s a pan along a line of Day busts, suggesting continuity; in S2/S3, the pan is in the opposite direction and the busts are disintegrating. Nice touch.) ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2025, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/250 "2025-08-16T22:02:35Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > At least Preem Palver is an improvement, even though he’s a deaf-mute. As I said earlier, having him (and his wife) talk and act like refugees from the mid-20th century Garment District was ridiculous. _Oy_. I thought that was interesting. The way that Asimov wrote communication between Second Foundationers, with subverbal levels of extreme subtlety, is a ways from the ASL that Troy Kotsur seems to be using, but it does convey that aspect of Second Foundation communication well to a general audience who may not be fully aware of the source work. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2025, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/251 "2025-08-17T01:44:55Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > Hmm, point taken. I don’t believe he was at the Vault when all hell broke loose, but he did play the Visi-Sonor for the Foundation high muckety-mucks and may have planted some post-hypnotic suggestions then. He was in the vault. When Hari opens the sunroof so they can see their own ships above fighting each other, Magnifico points out the Mule’s ship, the Blacktongue. And I don’t mean this to pile on, but there is some other foreshadowing in this episode: Bayta says to Magnifico, “You and I… we’re good at making people love us.” And then Tobar says, “I’ve looked into the Mule’s eyes…” and the shot cuts to a closeup of Magnifico staring. IMHO, the twist is obvious enough that I’m hoping for a twist on that twist, but I don’t expect it. eta- sorry, messed up the spoilers function there, had to retype it out. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2025, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/252 "2025-08-18T20:44:37Z")
There’s “only merely wrong,” and there’s “really most sincerely wrong.” I seem to have fallen into the latter category (hardly the first time). My distaste for the way the Mule arc seems to be developing — as noted upthread, what’s been done to Toran and Bayta is borderline criminal — may have warped my memory. _Mea Culpa_. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2025, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/253 "2025-08-18T23:06:23Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > as noted upthread, what’s been done to Toran and Bayta is borderline criminal I would hazard a guess that the writers wanted to create character arcs for the “Mallows” that show them going from disinterested sybarites to key actors in the preservation of the Seldon Plan. Something so the actors can show off their “dramatic range” or somesuch. Certainly in the most recent episode, the gravity of the situation they and the galaxy are in seemed to be weighing on them more than at the start of the season. So perhaps the “Mallows” of the start of the season will become the “Darells” of the books? Four more episodes and we’ll know one way or the other… ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2025, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/254 "2025-08-23T19:39:14Z")
This is re: season 3, episode 7, for anyone reading from the future. Someone help me out here… Imagine you are under the heel of an authoritarian regime that not only imposes a strict one-child policy, but even goes so far as to ration food such that families cannot survive with more than one child (except maybe with great difficulty?). Anyway, you’ve got this problem of an extra child (an infant) on top of your… IDK, maybe tween-age son? The regime’s henchmen arrive one day, learn about your extra child, and say in no uncertain terms that when they come back in a month, there had better not be any “extra”. Assuming that you have become convinced, with metaphysical certainty let’s say, that you must dispose of at least one child, do you… (a) Smother the infant, that cannot offer even the slightest resistance and, for what it’s worth, also would seem to have the least chance of surviving to adulthood given what we know about infant mortality (especially in areas that are just barely subsisting, if even that), or (b) Brute force strangle or drown the tween-age child that has survived infancy, and thus has a better chance of long-term survival in general, and might at least—setting aside certain psychic powers that you have no reason to expect could exist—scratch or bruise you in the struggle, possibly even escape? And would also probably be pleading with you for his life in words you can actually understand, rather than faintly audible whimpers (assuming you smother the baby with a pillow or something)? As terrible a choice as it might be, (a) really is the no-brainer, right? Perhaps there’s a reason the episode ends on a cliffhanger, questioning whether the story is true… ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2025, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/255 "2025-08-23T20:34:59Z")
I wondered about that myself, and the only rationale I could come up with was that the parents had some history with the proto-Mule\* which led them to believe that they’d have a better outcome with the infant. But as you said, the accuracy of the story is very much undetermined. Incidentally, I did notice one of the past names Demerzel used. “She” may be even longer lived than we were led to believe. \* I may have been less wrong than I thought upthread about the Mule’s identity. But this crew has thrown so many curveballs it’s hard to know what’s “real” anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2025, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/256 "2025-08-23T20:41:52Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > “She” may be even longer lived than we were led to believe. “She” is R. Daneel Olivaw and I think by the time of Foundation “she” is somewhere around 20,000 years old (think creation was around when the Robot series was happening so think Will Smith movie timeline to start). So yeah…quite old. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2025, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/257 "2025-08-23T21:17:02Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > As terrible a choice as it might be, (a) really is the no-brainer, right? A baby eats less food. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2025, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/258 "2025-08-23T22:17:59Z")
True. But consider also that a well grown, fat yearling child, which roasted whole will make a considerable figure at a Lord Mayor’s feast, or any other publick entertainment. Two birds with one stone, eh? ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2025, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/259 "2025-08-23T22:47:26Z")
I don’t recall anything in _The Caves of Steel_ (where we first encounter R. Daneel) that gives a timeframe, but [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Caves_of_Steel) says it takes place “roughly three millennia in Earth’s future, a time when hyperspace travel has been discovered and a few worlds relatively close to Earth have been colonized.” Take that for what it’s worth. Personally, I think that makes the characters horribly anachronistic given the social and technical changes that must have taken place, but that’s Asimov for you; and it must be admitted that he couldn’t have strayed _too_ far from contemporary dialog and behavior without alienating his audience. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2025, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/260 "2025-08-23T22:56:38Z")
I agree it is hard to pin down a solid timeline but I think it is safe to say Daneel is very, very old when the Foundation books start (and those go on for a very long time). ETA: To be clear: Daneel is also Demerzel. Same entity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328.md?page=14)