# Foundation: TV series discussion (open spoilers; comparison to the books allowed) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, apple\ **Created:** [September 25, 2021, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328 "2021-09-25T13:28:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2025, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/261 "2025-08-23T23:44:03Z")
In the first Foundation novel, the Galactic Empire is 12000 years old. So given that Daneel existed before the Settlers were even allowed by the Spacers to start their own colonies, Daneel-Demerzel has to be 15000+ years old. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2025, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/262 "2025-08-26T00:52:54Z")
My wife and I dislike this season. We’re pretty stunned, as we even re-watched season 1 and 2 leading into this. It’s…I don’t know. We just aren’t fans of the storylines right now. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2025, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/263 "2025-08-26T02:02:49Z")
I don’t know anything about the books, but in the episode where OG Cleon discovers her locked away in segments, Demerzel tells him that she is just over 18,000 years old. The latest episode is something like 600-700 years after that, give or take? So in the general neighborhood of just over 18,600-18,700 years old? Of course, that’s if she wasn’t lying in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/264 "2025-08-28T22:01:17Z")
Wouldn’t a lie, at least implicitly, contradict the second law of robotics? That is, a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law (re: the preservation of human life)? ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/265 "2025-08-29T05:51:25Z")
She isn’t bound by the three laws anymore, right? She was a general in a war against humans, so I assume she used more than harsh language against them. OG Cleon brings up that she “used” to be bound by laws and the first law was you can’t harm humans, and she replies “That used to be the case.” That’s when he upgraded her with the protect-the-genetic-dynasty-above-all-else chip. Also, she killed Zephyr Halima in the first season on the orders of Brother Day. Before she killed her, she told her that she walked the spiral 11,000 years ago which confirmed that she was a robot. It was implied that Demerzel didn’t mind confirming the truth to Halima because she was going to be dead soon. So I’m guessing she’s not lying about being 18,000 years old, but she was manipulating OG Cleon into setting her free, so you just never know. A wildcard going forward, however, might be when Demerzel BSOD’d a few episodes ago after she did the mind meld with Gaal. It’s possible her being forced to reboot her system caused a factory reset or did some other stuff to her programming. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/266 "2025-08-29T13:48:01Z")
What is Demerzel’s goal? Uh, overthrowing all this and bringing robots back to rule? I know she has coding to protect Empire, though… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/267 "2025-08-29T15:28:27Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > What is Demerzel’s goal? Spoilers: Demerzel’s ultimate goal is to protect and preserve humanity according to the Zeroth Law of Robotics. That takes a few forms. Mainly to prevent extinction but also help establish Psychohistory, generally guiding humanity and, later, working toward Galaxia (a galaxy-wide collective consciousness). ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/268 "2025-08-29T17:18:39Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Spoilers: Thanks. Huh, I guess the show will maintain that from the book. I wonder if this show has a sort of end-date in mind. 4th or 5th season? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/269 "2025-08-29T17:21:53Z")
I have no idea but I cannot imagine they will ever get into the Galaxia stuff. Not even close. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/270 "2025-08-29T17:34:52Z")
I’m with you. The series has moved on from speculative world-building and character growth, and now has mostly turned into pew-pew action resolutions. I’m still enjoying it, but it is reminding me of the rushed box-checking of plot threads from Game of Thrones last season or two. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/271 "2025-08-29T18:08:07Z")
I feel bad for the Robot-On-A-Stick. It’s obviously aware and to some extent sentient and it has to spend it’s days as a religious ornament for a power-hungry cult leader. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/272 "2025-08-29T18:42:24Z")
So we haven’t seen Magnifico lately. I’m not sure what to make of that. I highly doubt he is gone and strongly suspect that The Mule listening to Bayta was not just his happening to agree with her … I don’t especially care if Day dies but I really was expecting Demerzel to have connected to the Brazen Skull after it initiated handshake protocol. If she has she hides any sign of it well. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/273 "2025-08-29T21:48:04Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > She isn’t bound by the three laws anymore, right? She was a general in a war against humans, so I assume she used more than harsh language against them. OG Cleon brings up that she “used” to be bound by laws and the first law was you can’t harm humans, and she replies “That used to be the case.” That’s when he upgraded her with the protect-the-genetic-dynasty-above-all-else chip. It’s murky, I’ll grant you. My sense was that she isn’t so much _not_ bound by the three laws as that she is now subject to a zeroth law before all of them: that she must preserve the Cleoninc dynasty above all else. So she can now kill and allow humans to suffer harm to that end. But, conceivably, provided the zeroth law is not threatened, she could then be compelled according to the remaining laws. As for how (before that) she could have managed to be a general in a war against humans notwithstanding the three laws, I got the impression it was following some _I, Robot_ logic whereby (1) she did not harm humans directly, but (2) did allow humans acting according to her…. if not will, then conception of the optimal future, such that they acted in a way to harm other humans, but… _for the greater good_ of humanity. Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/274 "2025-08-29T21:53:06Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > It’s murky, I’ll grant you. My sense was that she isn’t so much _not_ bound by the three laws as that she is now subject to a zeroth law before all of them:… I agree. The Zeroth Law overrides the other three since it is an outcome (distillation?) of the other three. Demerzel can let someone die if it is in service of the “greater good” (so to speak). Her (his?) goal is protecting the species and never any one person (unless that is in service of the greater goal). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/275 "2025-08-29T21:57:56Z")
I’ve wondered…did Psychohistory contemplate The Mule and account for him or is it that The Mule wrecks Psychohistory because he was never accounted for in their calculations and it wrecked the whole model/scheme? ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/276 "2025-08-29T22:11:02Z")
According to the books: The Plan did not anticipate the Mule, and it took a fair amount of manipulation on the part of the First Speaker(s) to neutralize him and put the Plan back on something resembling its intended course (Part 1 of _Second Foundation_). But in doing so, Foundation1 became aware of Foundation2, which wasn’t supposed to happen; Part 2 covers how that situation was rectified (by creating a scenario where Foundation1 could believe it had destroyed Foundation2). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/277 "2025-08-29T22:22:40Z")
It’s been ages since I read the books: Why would Foundation-1 want to destroy Foundation-2? I thought they were both part of the same thing, filling different roles. Foundation-1 sort of being the front man with science and Foundation-2 doing Psychohistory behind the scenes. I do not remember them fighting each other (they may have…I forget). ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/278 "2025-08-30T07:05:01Z")
I haven’t read them in years either, and don’t have copies to hand. IIRC, Foundation1 was supposed to regard itself as the sole custodian of the Seldon Plan and the ultimate ruler of the Galaxy. When they discovered (during the Mule crisis) that there was a Foundation2 which was actually running things, that had a severe negative effect on the drive and sense of purpose which were necessary for it to play out its designated role; therefore, it was deemed necessary for it to believe that Foundation2 had been eliminated so it could return to its planned arc. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/279 "2025-08-30T12:18:55Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So we haven’t seen Magnifico lately. > > I’m not sure what to make of that. I highly doubt he is gone and strongly suspect that The Mule listening to Bayta was not just his happening to agree with her … Yeah, right now, I’m leaning towards Bayta is the Mule. How Magnifico fits in there if that’s the case, I don’t know. Either way, I’m getting the feeling Bayta is going to be more important than I thought at first. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2025, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/280 "2025-08-31T20:42:03Z")
Not only that, but the 1st’s leadership actively resented that the 2nd Foundation was supposed to take over the Galactic Empire that the 1st was building, and using mind control to make sure the 1st was behaving the way they wanted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328.md?page=15)