# Foundation: TV series discussion (open spoilers; comparison to the books allowed) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, apple\ **Created:** [September 25, 2021, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328 "2021-09-25T13:28:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/101 "2021-11-01T15:23:01Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > I wonder if a Cleonic/botanist hybrid may be in the offing somewhere down the line? I agree, this seems fairly likely. Further, an Imperial scion could definitely be used as a pawn in some kind of war of succession by another group trying to seize power. Or they themselves might try to seize power, though that seems less likely to me. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/102 "2021-11-01T15:30:00Z")
If the child survives, of course. I wouldn’t give a plugged Imperial credit for Azura’s life expectancy should Day/Dusk find out, unless hiding in the Scar is _really_ effective. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/103 "2021-11-01T15:33:02Z")
It wouldn’t surprise me if she’s killed off but maybe only after the kid is born. Hell, I could see a situation where the someone (Dusk’s spy, maybe) is ordered to kill the kid, but recognizing the opportunity there the would-be assassin instead spirits the kid away to be raised by allies until the opportune moment ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/104 "2021-11-01T18:18:54Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > I wonder if a Cleonic/botanist hybrid may be in the offing somewhere down the line? I assume that the women in the Imperial brothel are sterilized in addition to having their memories wiped on a regular basis, but I got the impression in passing that staff positions such as Azura’s are hereditary, implying children. I predict Azura will come to a bad end (absolutely no memory from the book or knowledge of future TV episodes on my part…just seems a setup to screw with Brother Dawn). ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/105 "2021-11-01T18:50:16Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I predict Azura will come to a bad end (absolutely no memory from the book or knowledge of future TV episodes on my part…just seems a setup to screw with Brother Dawn). They’re foreshadowing it so much, I’m almost expecting a twist where they elope and live happily ever after. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/106 "2021-11-02T00:15:50Z")
I’ve used the analogy of putting a tin of popcorn on a stove. You can predict almost exactly how long it will be be before the first kernel pops, but you can’t ever predict _which_ kernel will be the first to pop. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/107 "2021-11-06T14:41:38Z")
Reactions to the 5 November episode: - I’m perversely relieved to see that Day remains the good ol’ Empire we’ve grown to know and loathe. For a while — and particularly in his interactions with the other pilgrim — it appeared that he might actually be developing something resembling empathy. But I suppose one anomalous Empire (Dawn) is enough. - Am I alone in thinking that the whole subplot of Gaal on (what was supposed to be) Raych’s ship was a 99-44/100% waste of time? Other than the existence of The-Institution-That-Must-Not-Be-Named-Yet, from my admittedly limited POV it didn’t advance the plot one damn bit, or reveal anything that wasn’t known or couldn’t be inferred. If there was any point, I’d appreciate hearing it. - Speaking of TITMNBNY, given that we now know it exists / will exist, what in Seldon’s name is the Prime Radiant doing on Terminus? - Finally, damfino where the _Invictus_ subplot is going (or for that matter, where the ship itself is going). I was reasonably sure that Salvor wasn’t going to die, but other than that the last couple minutes of the segment were even more chaotic than usual. Although it might be interesting to see what everyone’s like after experiencing a Jump without being in a transit pod. That’s all for the moment. I stand ready to be shot down in flames for any and all of the above. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/108 "2021-11-06T16:27:59Z")
Gosh, I feel dumb. I just realized that if you rearrange the letters in “Cleon” you get “Clone”. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/109 "2021-11-07T01:00:36Z")
Heh. Well the books mention the Cleon emperors, but do not mention cloning at all, so I’m thinking that’s more of a coincidence than not. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/110 "2021-11-07T01:48:16Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > I just realized that if you rearrange the letters in “Cleon” you get “Clone”. You’ve got to wonder if it gave the showrunners the idea… > [@OttoDaFe](#): > > The-Institution-That-Must-Not-Be-Named-Yet To be fair, that institution was named both in the preface and right at the end of the first Seldon crisis in the book. It’s far from the worst diversion from the book, after all… > [@OttoDaFe](#): > > Finally, damfino where the _Invictus_ subplot is going (or for that matter, where the ship itself is going). While watching that, I had a brief flashback to the end of _The Stars, Like Dust_ where the mystery of where a ship ends up after a series of hyperspace jumps is key to the plot. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/111 "2021-11-07T01:49:30Z")
Are the Laws of Robotics repealed now? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/112 "2021-11-07T02:50:21Z")
Daneel was willing to break the First Law to uphold the Zeroth Law, I’m hoping that’s what is happening here: for whatever reason, Demerzel believes that supporting Cleon is protecting humanity somehow ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/113 "2021-11-07T02:56:01Z")
From what I’ve read, the show does not have the rights to the _Robots_ series, so likely the Three Laws aren’t in consideration. And it’s not like this show has hesitated to alter the source material greatly anyway. Unless the Laws get mentioned explicitly at some point, I assume they are just not a part of this show’s universe. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/114 "2021-11-07T04:14:07Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > From what I’ve read, the show does not have the rights to the _Robots_ series, so likely the Three Laws aren’t in consideration. Of course, Asimov wove together his various IP in the sequels & prequels to such an extent that it’s hard to pull them apart. IIRC there’s a discussion of the Three Laws in both _Foundation and Earth_ and _Prelude To Foundation_. Perhaps the negotiations for what the TV series can cover had to go over every little thing in exhaustive detail. Heck, there’s even a throwaway line in _Foundation’s Edge_ that pulls _The End of Eternity_ into the Robot/Empire/Foundation series. I’m surprised no one got miniaturized to do brain surgery in a submarine during one of the prequels… ---
**Author:** ![TheGunIsMightierThanThePen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thegunismightierthanthepen/32/2981_2.png) [@TheGunIsMightierThanThePen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheGunIsMightierThanThePen)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/115 "2021-11-07T06:29:53Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > I’m perversely relieved to see that Day remains the good ol’ Empire we’ve grown to know and loathe. For a while — and particularly in his interactions with the other pilgrim — it appeared that he might actually be developing something resembling empathy. But I suppose one anomalous Empire (Dawn) is enough. Agreed, the storyline about the Emperor clones, and Lee Pace’s acting in particular, has been in my opinion far and away the best part of the series. I did feel that things worked out a bit too neatly regarding Brother Day’s gambit though. When he lied about the vision that in reality he never had, what if the Luminist triumvirate didn’t interpret his vision the way he wanted them to? > [@OttoDaFe](#): > > Am I alone in thinking that the whole subplot of Gaal on (what was supposed to be) Raych’s ship was a 99-44/100% waste of time? I thought it was an excuse for the writers to keep showing Hari Seldon on the screen, even though he is supposed to be dead. But otherwise, like you said, that subplot feels very throwaway-able, and given Gaal’s histrionics, I’d rather the writers just excise it completely. > [@OttoDaFe](#): > > Finally, damfino where the _Invictus_ subplot is going (or for that matter, where the ship itself is going) I’m guessing it’ll be a pretty traditional “hero saves the day” ending where Salvor wrests control of the ship from the Anacreon huntress and the forces of good win out, don’t think the writers will subvert the viewers’ expectations on this one. I _am_ curious as to where the _Invictus_ will end up though. Won’t be Trantor, because that is the huntress’s target, but she wasn’t able to control the ship before it made the random jump. I don’t think it will be anywhere near locations mentioned in the Gaal subplot either, because my guess is the writers want to keep the Gaal and Salvor subplots separate for now. Maybe it pops up in front of Anacreon and Salvor ends up glassing the planet? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/116 "2021-11-07T13:59:42Z")
> [@TheGunIsMightierThanThePen](#): > > When he lied about the vision that in reality he never had, what if the Luminist triumvirate didn’t interpret his vision the way he wanted them to? I don’t know how much of a gamble it was - he just had to know WAY more about their theology than they expected him to know, and drop a hint to get them to connect the trinity concept with the way there are always 3 emperors. (Hell, Dawn, Day, and Dusk even line up neatly with Maiden, Mother, and Crone). I’m really enjoying this subplot, it gives me great Charlemagne vs Pope vibes. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/117 "2021-11-07T15:43:01Z")
I think we’re shortchanging Day a bit. As his interaction with the other pilgrim shows, he’s capable of empathy and compassion, in his own way; I think he was actually hoping for some sort of vision or epiphany at the end of his ordeal. The fact that he didn’t get one broke him even more than he’s already broken. If he had actually felt something, would he still have killed Halima? I have to say, I’m really enjoying this show, warts and all. It helps that I read the first three books 25 years ago, and they didn’t make much of an impression on me. I’m more of an SF New Wave guy, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/118 "2021-11-07T20:07:31Z")
Anyone else really annoyed that after they made it painfully obvious that Day made up the vision the show felt they had to show us and do the Demezel voiceover? Like how dumb do they think their audience is? Gaal storyline was pointless and unless the Invictus intercepts her on it’s jump (which now I think is a distinct possiblity), she’s probably done for the season. At this point, I think I’m going to finish the season (2 more eps) and then never watch this show again. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/119 "2021-11-07T20:28:19Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Anyone else really annoyed that after they made it painfully obvious that Day made up the vision the show felt they had to show us and do the Demezel voiceover? Like how dumb do they think their audience is? The revelation in that scene wasn’t that he didn’t have a vision; it was that this made him upset. Until that moment, I thought he did not expect, nor want, a vision - that he was cynically manipulating the matriarchs. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/120 "2021-11-11T21:31:33Z")
I’m hoping it is the Zeroth Law too. Otherwise the show will have seriously departed from the source material. So much so that it has little claim to the title (not that it will stop them). Frankly, I am hard pressed to see the Zeroth law invoked here but presumably the writers can concoct something. Gaal is really getting on my nerves. Nevermind the fate of the freaking galaxy. She doesn’t like how things are and will bitch and moan about it endlessly and loudly (literally had to turn my volume down as she screamed…again…at the unfairness of it all). Either get with the program or go find some world to hide on and be done with it. She seemed perfectly willing to screw everything up (save the galaxy) because she’s mad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328.md?page=7)