# Foundation: TV series discussion (open spoilers; comparison to the books allowed) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, apple\ **Created:** [September 25, 2021, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328 "2021-09-25T13:28:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/141 "2021-11-17T02:01:02Z")
> [@Precambrianmollusc](#): > > …and has also said she cant allow the emperor to be harmed, which regardless of her long term goals is still part of her programming/ rules… Well, her programming is only the original stuff done way, way before the Emperor/Empire. She/he has to abide by the three laws of robotics and then, by extension, the Zeroth law which allows her to maybe let a human die here and there. But I do not remember anything that says she is beholden to the Emperor. I mean, maybe she pretends at that but I do not think she was beholden to some special rule for the emperor. I think in her quest to guide humanity to a better place she finds it most suitable to be next to the seat of power so she can influence things. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/142 "2021-11-17T02:01:35Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Uh, where was she shot out to? And if she it not on the same ship(which must have landed with the colonists we’ve followed), where the heck is she when she wakes up? > [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > That will be explained in a future episode. Yup…keep watching. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/143 "2021-11-17T06:43:25Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Well, her programming is only the original stuff done way, way before the Emperor/Empire. She/he has to abide by the three laws of robotics and then, by extension, the Zeroth law which allows her to maybe let a human die here and there. I’d just like to note that we have seen no evidence that the Three Laws even exist in this show. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/144 "2021-11-17T07:26:23Z")
My understanding is that she was initially shot to the ship that Raych was supposed to be on, which upset several apple carts: the plan seemed to be that she would accompany the colonists to Terminus and watch over Foundation1 while Raych and Seldon — either live or holographic, I’m not entirely sure — went to Helicon (Seldon’s homeworld) to establish Foundation2. After blackmailing holoSeldon into letting her go my recollection is that she told the capsule to take her back to Synnax, where she could most likely look forward to a short swim attached to a very heavy rock. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/145 "2021-11-17T07:31:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’d just like to note that we have seen no evidence that the Three Laws even exist in this show. Right. And at some point in the past, there were wars with robots. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/146 "2021-11-18T12:06:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’d just like to note that we have seen no evidence that the Three Laws even exist in this show. True. The show certainly has not explored Demerzel’s deeper nature at all. Hopefully some back story will come but they may ignore the books. But that would be a shame. I realize that the TV series needs to diverge from the books in some areas but the robots are so central to the Asimov universe and Demerzel to Foundation I’d submit that ignoring the nature of Demerzel is tantamount to heresy in the Asimov universe. That’s just me though. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Right. And at some point in the past, there were wars with robots. IF (note the big “if”) the TV series adheres to the books then Demerzel is still beholden to the Three Laws (and Zeroth Law). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/147 "2021-11-18T14:44:34Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But that would be a shame. I realize that the TV series needs to diverge from the books in some areas but the robots are so central to the Asimov universe and Demerzel to Foundation I’d submit that ignoring the nature of Demerzel is tantamount to heresy in the Asimov universe. That’s just me though. It’s weird - It may be because I read the Foundation Trilogy a long time ago, but I don’t remember the Demerzel character at all. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/148 "2021-11-18T15:26:37Z")
In the books Demerzel was a guy. Dunno if that is the disconnect. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/149 "2021-11-18T17:19:35Z")
You’re right. Demerzel/Daneel does not appear in the original trilogy at all, but does appear in the prequels and sequels. I would have been fine if the series had just been about the trilogy, but since they are going for a more expansive story, it makes sense to have Demerzel there. All that said, the plot of the series bears so little resemblance to the books that who knows what they will do with the character. But they’ll probably make a mockery of it like so many others. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/150 "2021-11-18T17:54:06Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > You’re right. Demerzel/Daneel does not appear in the original trilogy at all, but does appear in the prequels and sequels. A more succinct response than the one I was conjuring before I was called away. All I can add is a guess (which is worth, at most, what you’re paying for it): that when Asimov expanded the story arc to include the eras before and after the trilogy, he felt the need for someone or something to bind it all together. And [R. Daneel Olivaw](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Daneel_Olivaw), being at least theoretically immortal, met that requirement. Damn, I wish I hadn’t started thinking about the prequels. Now I want a coke-icer. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/151 "2021-11-18T17:54:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > IF (note the big “if”) the TV series adheres to the books then Demerzel is still beholden to the Three Laws (and Zeroth Law). How can robots in a war against humanity obey the three laws? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/152 "2021-11-18T18:08:14Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > How can robots in a war against humanity obey the three laws?. All kinds of ways, some of which even get touched on in the books. You could have robots who aren’t aware that their actions are hurting humans. They’re blowing up spaceships, not people! You could explain to them that there are people on those ships, but they might not believe you. In another example there are robots assembled on a space station who do not even know what humans are. When some humans show up and try to order them around, they refuse, because they just don’t realize the puny beings ordering them are humans. In a third example, there is a planet on which lives only a single person, who is both male and female. This person is served by billions of robots. Their last act in life is to give birth to a new person. This is the result of a society that viewed human contact as taboo, and relied on robots, evolving for tens of thousands of years in total isolation. The net result is that when some other humans land on the planet, the robots try to kill them, because the Laws protect Humans, and clearly the single perfect being they protect is a Human while any other creatures are lesser beings. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2021, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/153 "2021-11-19T04:09:26Z")
Well, once again, Empire stuff is compelling and really well done while the Terminus & Gaal stuff is just not very good at all. The notion of hologram Hardin telling the outer world people what to do at this juncture just makes psychohistory seem like a bunch of intuitive guesses which Hardin can change on the fly if his guesses are off. The books made Hardin’s appearance as a recording - where he said things like this is where you probably are right now, and they were on the money, except one important time. That made psychohistory so impressive. This way just seems less so. I’d watch a show about Empire. Though I won’t do so in the show about Foundation. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2021, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/154 "2021-11-19T06:20:49Z")
Replace “Hardin” with “Seldon” and I agree. One thing that bothered me is that he gave them **far** more information than bookSeldon would have. And for someone who just said that as Empire he couldn’t concern himself with individuals, Day certainly took a personal interest in Azura 🥴. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2021, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/155 "2021-11-19T13:33:35Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > Replace “Hardin” with “Seldon” and I agree. Oops, that’s what I get for posting while tired… ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2021, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/156 "2021-11-19T22:43:11Z")
Upon reflection after the season finale, and contrary to some of my earlier comments, I find myself looking forward to the second season. Mainly for the Empire/Trantor arc: it appears that momentum toward the Fall is accelerating faster than Seldon anticipated, and one of the shortcomings of the original trilogy is that the Fall just kinda “happened” behind the scenes (Asimov did attempt to rectify this in the pre- and sequels, with limited success). And I must confess a certain morbid curiosity about the Seldon/Dornick/Hardin/Terminus arc: namely, how far the producers are going to run it off the rails. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/157 "2021-11-20T02:10:54Z")
Brother Day meting out some savage punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/158 "2021-11-20T02:37:22Z")
I want the first scene of the next episode to be whatshername taking the memory thingy from whosherface and contemptuously tossing it over her shoulder. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/159 "2021-11-20T05:13:15Z")
Talk about the proverbial “fate worse than death.” Speaking of which, I rather imagine she’ll be monitored and medicated as necessary to ensure that her death is delayed as long as possible. Is it just me, or did she seem to age ten years or so during the final thirty seconds of that scene? ---
**Author:** ![TheGunIsMightierThanThePen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thegunismightierthanthepen/32/2981_2.png) [@TheGunIsMightierThanThePen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheGunIsMightierThanThePen)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328/160 "2021-11-22T05:39:55Z")
> [@mozchron](#): > > Brother Day meting out some savage punishment. I loved his acting in that scene, heck, in the whole episode in general. Lee Pace is singlehandedly carrying this series IMO. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I want the first scene of the next episode to be whatshername taking the memory thingy from whosherface and contemptuously tossing it over her shoulder. Followed by her hand-milking a dolphin 🤣 > [@OttoDaFe](#): > > Mainly for the Empire/Trantor arc: Oh yes, this, the bad blood brewing between Brother Day and Brother Dusk is palpable, and I can’t wait to see the ensuing cold war between the two. > [@OttoDaFe](#): > > And I must confess a certain morbid curiosity about the Seldon/Dornick/Hardin/Terminus arc: namely, how far the producers are going to run it off the rails. They already got a great head start on that by having Gaal’s pod land pretty much _ **right next to where Salvor’s pod sank** _, out of all the places on a giant planet Gaal could land - really??? All this show writing gymnastics to get the two protagonists meeting each other reeks of the contrived events that lead to Captains Picard and Kirk meeting each other in _Star Trek: Generations_. And Gaal happens to be Salvor’s real mother? That’s some _Maury_-level shit going on there. Not to mention, Gaal said Salvor had been in cryo-sleep for over a century … so I guess Hugo, Salvor’s adoptive mom, and all of Salvor’s friends are long dead by now? No biggie. 🤷‍♂️ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foundation-tv-series-discussion-open-spoilers-comparison-to-the-books-allowed/951328.md?page=9)