For the first half of the latest episode I thought it was a big dud.
Then things got spicy. Still trying to decide what it all means for the over-arching story.
As regards Brother Dawn: I can see no way the current Brother Dawn gets to remain living. Day and Dusk simply have to be rid of him and decant a new Dawn. Guess we’ll see. (Also, clever way of Dusk to bust Dawn with the mural.)
at the start of the episode, when Dawn and Azura were planning his escape, I thought “Wait, something about her feels off. Is she gonna backstab Dawn?”
Then I dismissed those concerns in time to be totally surprised when she DID backstab him.
I liked that whole subplot, it was very intricate and interesting.
I think Brother Day’s “spiritual experience”, or perhaps lack thereof, may give him a new perspective… I could see him letting Dawn live.
I liked the tension permeating Brother Dawn’s escape subplot, but Brother Dusk’s plan seemed altogether too elaborate - it seemed as if he and his henchmen already knew that Azura was part of the insurrectionist group, so why would they need to let Dawn break out of the palace to lead them to the conspirators? Why not just use their mini-drones / spies / other surveillance techniques to do so instead?
I also lean more towards the view that Brother Day lets Dawn live. Day already broke protocol when he insisted on taking Dusk’s place on that off-world diplomatic excursion, so I think he might consider Dawn’s differences to be an asset when Dawn comes of age and faces continuing threats to the survival of the Empire.
As regards Brother Dawn: Is there a reason Dusk/Day would be reluctant to kill the current Dawn and pop out a new one from their farm of Cleons?
I thought Dusk needed to smoke out the bogus Cleon and this was the only way to get him into the open.
Good point, I guess if they used only their spies and drones, they can kill Azura and her conspirators, but the fake Cleon remains in hiding because there’s no need for him to show up unless it’s to transfer the nanobots from Dawn.
Just my wild-ass theory, but perhaps Brother Day sees the light after his experience on that Luminist planet, and decides that Dawn’s genetic differences might provide unforeseen advantages down the line.
One thing that annoys me: the tank farm of spare Cleons establishes that they have memory transfer technology. So why don’t the Cleons share memories across generations? That is even more continuity than producing an endless string of delayed twin brothers and trying to raise them right.
The way I understood it, the memories can be transferred, but someone needs to be out in the real world interacting with others and creating these memories. The Cleons in the tanks are just meant to be backups in the unfortunate event one of the real Cleons are lost for whatever reason.
Also, I only remember seeing Dawn’s backup clone on screen, but were there supposed to be backup clones for Day and Dusk as well?
I have never been clear if, in the show, there are Cleons at various ages in tanks. I would think there would have to be otherwise an accidental death of one of the living Cleons would could throw the whole scheme out of whack.
Let’s say there is a 60 year-old Cleon, a 40 year-old and a 20 year-old. What happens if any of them are killed? You can’t pop out an infant. You need someone the appropriate age (who also, presumably, has all the memories and experiences of a living Cleon already programmed into their head).
So far, we have never seen any indication of an infant Cleon.
I’m also not sure they really thought this whole clone business through. Seems like the memory transfer tech means that they could just have one Cleon’s memories/consciousness infinitely prolonged through a succession of clone bodies, without having to go through the whole Dusk, Day, Dawn-business. Also, Seldon’s return means there is digital immortality, so why have different Cleons at all? In a sense, each Cleon must consent to dying, when they wouldn’t have to; and I don’t really see that being in their—sorry—DNA.
I thought they did show various ages in the tanks.
Another issue…
If they age (say) 20 → 40 and 40 → 60 and 60 → 80 then one would think at 80 they are killed and a new 20 year-old is brought out of a tank.
One would suppose Cleons are not keen on mandatory suicide and would fight back.
We already saw that in episode 3, where then Brother Dusk became Brother Darkness and voluntarily stepped into a euthanizing chamber.
Ah, right. I had forgotten that. Thanks.
And then the new Dawn was “baptized” with debris from Darkness’s disintegration, which I found both logical and borderline nauseating.
(Darkness seemed rather hesitant to play out his part until Demerzel soothed him with the “lullaby” she was singing to proto-Dawn the night before.)
I guess Demerzel has them pretty well conditioned.
I wonder how much of her programming of not being allowed the emperor to come to harm is focused on protecting the the Empire clone line , and she could happily let an individual instance die to protect the overall lineage.
Demerzel is ancient…really, really ancient in age (like over 19,000 years old).
Demerzel has his/her own agenda.
Yeah she is very old which has been said in the context of the show, and has also said she cant allow the emperor to be harmed, which regardless of her long term goals is still part of her programming/ rules
I was just wondering out loud how far she could abstract those rules to 'cant let harm come to the concept of Empire " but the specific embodiments at the time dont count.
ETA, I suppose she was also around and in a position of influence way before the cloning started, so how much of a hand did she have in kicking that whole thi g off.
FWIW I read the books 30 years ago and dont remember a whole lot so I am enjoying the show overall as I am happily ignorant of knowledge 
The Trantor stuff is good
I still find the Terminus stuff a bit too jerky in flow and acting.
I have not read the thread as i am only on episode 5, but my wife and I have a simple question:
Gaal was put into a coffin like container filled with goo by her boyfriend. She was ejected out like Spock’s coffin in Star Trek. In episode 5, she has awoken and when she got out of the room she was in…it looked like she was on the ship she had been on? She watched history of what happened in the 34 years between.
Uh, where was she shot out to? And if she it not on the same ship(which must have landed with the colonists we’ve followed), where the heck is she when she wakes up?
That will be explained in a future episode.