# founding fathers and quote on religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 31, 2005, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562 "2005-01-31T09:25:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![filmyak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@filmyak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmyak)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/1 "2005-01-31T09:25:43Z")
I recently heard that the founding fathers (of the U.S.A., that is), while being religious men in their own way (not the extreme right wing variety that’s been all over the press lately) wanted to emphasize the separation of church and state, to the point that George Washington made some public comment on the importance of keeping religion out of the government. Does anyone have more information on this statement, when it was made, and better still a link to the quote? ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/2 "2005-01-31T10:14:02Z")
A fellow named Gene Garman who is very obviously not a fan of organized religion mixing with government wrote & vanity-published a book called [America’s Real Religion](http://www.cjnetworks.com/~ggarman/ARRbookonline.pdf) (pdf file) to which I just linked. He used to send out copies free, now it’s posted on the net for free (you do need Adobe Acrobat). There are more Founding Father quotes in there than you can shake a copy of _Origin of Species_ at; although he obviously has a strong opinion on one side of the question, he footnoted everything and you should be able to track anything you doubt down. I’m sure there’s specifically some Washington stuff in there (George was a Deist), but this is as much legwork as I’m willing to do for you at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/3 "2005-01-31T12:39:19Z")
I don’t know of any such statement by George Washington about the importance of keeping religion out of government, although there are a number of quotations from him supporting freedom of religion and opposing religious bigotry; one of the better known was his statement from a [letter to a Rhode Island synagogue](http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/presidency/hebrew/hebrew2.html): > [@](#): > > The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support. There was a [1796 treaty with Tripoli](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm) (one of the “Barbary States”) the negotiation of which began under Washington’s administration, although it was actually signed by Washington’s successor John Adams, which contains a clause which is sometimes the source of incorrectly attributed “George Washington” quotes about the relationship between Christianity and the U.S. government: > [@](#): > > As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. Finally, James Madison did write about the importance of keeping religion and government separate. From an [1822 letter](http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/madison_livingston.html): > [@](#): > > Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt. will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/4 "2005-01-31T16:32:10Z")
The wording in the Bill of Rights and what we all call “separation of church and state” leads me to wonder what was meant in the founding fathers’ eyes – I think it was more along the lines of “The Anglican Church shall be the One Church” vs. the reactionaries we’ve become, but someone could surely provide a factual answer? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/5 "2005-01-31T16:40:11Z")
> [@filmyak](#): > > I recently heard that the founding fathers (of the U.S.A., that is), while being religious men in their own way (not the extreme right wing variety that’s been all over the press lately) wanted to emphasize the separation of church and state, to the point that George Washington made some public comment on the importance of keeping religion out of the government. > > Does anyone have more information on this statement, when it was made, and better still a link to the quote? There are quotes from both sides of the question. > [@John Adams](#): > > Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. > [@George Washington](#): > > Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. [Etc.](http://www.liberty1.org/virtue.htm) I don’t believe the Founding Fathers reacted to the notion of religious thought, and religious people, in government with the same sense of horror that some modern liberals do. Separation of church and state, sure. Exclusion of the church and its teachings from public influence altogether - not nearly as much. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/6 "2005-01-31T17:32:15Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > The wording in the Bill of Rights and what we all call “separation of church and state” leads me to wonder what was meant in the founding fathers’ eyes – I think it was more along the lines of “The Anglican Church shall be the One Church” vs. the reactionaries we’ve become, but someone could surely provide a factual answer? The Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom was specifically designed to break the connection between the Anglican Church and government. You can read more about it (including a text of the document) here: [http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/42.htm](http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/42.htm) Prior to the adoption of the Act, you had to be a member of the vestry to participate in government to any great degree. ---
**Author:** ![filmyak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@filmyak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmyak)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/7 "2005-02-02T01:21:23Z")
Thanks, everyone, for the great links! ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/8 "2005-02-02T01:38:47Z")
> [@filmyak](#): > > I recently heard that the founding fathers (of the U.S.A., that is), while being religious men in their own way (not the extreme right wing variety that’s been all over the press lately) wanted to emphasize the separation of church and state, to the point that George Washington made some public comment on the importance of keeping religion out of the government. > > Does anyone have more information on this statement, when it was made, and better still a link to the quote? Many of these men were quite religious. They just didn’t want any specific religion shoved down their throats. ---
**Author:** ![TwoTrouts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9adbd/32.png) [@TwoTrouts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwoTrouts)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/9 "2005-02-02T02:00:33Z")
There is a reason why the Declaration of Independence mentions “_Nature’s God_” and the Constitution has no mention of God or the Bible at all. Check out the book **FreeThinkers** by Susan Jacoby for an in-depth (maybe too in-depth) study of the Founding Fathers [FreeThinkers](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805074422/qid=1107310189/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-5131992-3863819?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/10 "2005-02-02T05:52:53Z")
For those interested in the thinking that went into our founding documents I would suggest the book “Original Intent”, by Barton. It isd about 70% quotes from the founding fathers. Some of the men are the ones we know, other more obscure, but all had great influence in the society they were building. Enjoy. I don’t know if I should include this (as a truly curious mind will devour facts whatever theyn reveal), but the book puts forth a powerful argument that the founding fathers felt that religion was crucial to a healthy society. They did want to keep government out of religion (unlike England), but they had no desire to keep religion out of government or any other aspect of the society. magellan01 ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/11 "2005-02-02T06:25:17Z")
It is also important to understand religion in the context of the Founders. What and how they believed in 18th C America is much different than today. I’m sure **Polycarp** will have the straight dope but it is my understanding that the current First Amendment arguments and debates by certain religious types in America today fail on their face because the religion they espouse today did not exist at the time of the Founders. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/12 "2005-02-02T07:19:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t believe the Founding Fathers reacted to the notion of religious thought, and religious people, in government with the same sense of horror that some modern liberals do. :rolleyes: That’s probably because the Founding Fathers didn’t have to deal with religious leaders actively trying to turn the nation into a theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/13 "2005-02-02T07:45:54Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > :rolleyes: > > That’s probably because the Founding Fathers didn’t have to deal with religious leaders actively trying to turn the nation into a theocracy. Sure those Puritans were just a bunch of “live and let live” sort of people. The fact that they drove some of their members to leave and settle Conn. and RI shouldn’t influence you at all. Or was it the other way around, no matter you get the point. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/14 "2005-02-02T13:03:18Z")
> [@kniz](#): > > Sure those Puritans were just a bunch of “live and let live” sort of people. The fact that they drove some of their members to leave and settle Conn. and RI shouldn’t influence you at all. Or was it the other way around, no matter you get the point. 🙂 Westport, Connecticut - the Australia of The United States. [satirical tone on] … driven south by puritanical Puritans, this gritty cadre of new Americans forged a bold new frontier in untamed wilderness. Bringing nothing with them but the clothes on their backs, 1979 Volvo station wagons, L.L. Bean jumpers and Birkenstocks, they created civilization where before there had been nothing but the idle pods of happy non-secular cetaceans, frolicking off the coastline… [/satirical tone off] 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/15 "2005-02-02T13:57:27Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > The wording in the Bill of Rights and what we all call “separation of church and state” leads me to wonder what was meant in the founding fathers’ eyes – I think it was more along the lines of “The Anglican Church shall be the One Church” vs. the reactionaries we’ve become, but someone could surely provide a factual answer? I tend to agree with you. The continental congress used to open with a prayer. It seems clear that the founding fathers were not opposed to religion, but instead were more closely aligned with what you have said. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/16 "2005-02-02T15:17:14Z")
To try and help answer the OP, [here](http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/washington.htm) is a list of Washington quotes regarding separation of church and state. Of course, as others can point out, Washington also believed religion was vital to living a good life. A couple other things: First, it is nigh but impossible to say the founding fathers reached a consensus on the meaning of the Establishment Clause. The “founding fathers” were like any group of people, to some it meant one thing to others another. It is disengenous to say that the founding fathers thought that religion and the government needed to be completely separate, just as it is disengenous to say the founding fathers supported the concept that the government was meant to be a Christian government. When you add in the issue of federalism (whether the States could establish a religion if they wanted), it gets even more messy. Second, is [this](http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html) you, **MEBuckner**? Very informative site. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/17 "2005-02-02T16:24:05Z")
> [@kniz](#): > > Sure those Puritans were just a bunch of “live and let live” sort of people. The fact that they drove some of their members to leave and settle Conn. and RI shouldn’t influence you at all. Or was it the other way around, no matter you get the point. 🙂 The Founders lived in the last part of the 18th century and the beginning of the 19th century. The Puritans lived from the late 16th century to the early 18th century. The two are nowhere near the same. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/18 "2005-02-03T08:19:14Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Second, is [this](http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html) you, **MEBuckner**? Very informative site. Yeah, that’s me. Well, me and my dad. Mostly my dad. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/19 "2005-02-03T13:08:49Z")
Even those founding fathers who were Deists were not the “aloof God” type of Deists they are made out to be. They believed in a God who governed human affairs, would reward virtue & punish vice in the afterlife, and attended to prayer, and that Jesus was one of the wisest moral teachers & the Bible a book of moral & religious wisdom that should be learned & respected if not entirely believed. Washington btw was an active vestryman in his Episcopal church. However, for some reason, he refrained from taking Communion. Franklin made an unheeded call for prayer before the Constitutional Convention, subsidized many religious bodies, & urged Paine against publishing THE AGE OF REASON. Jefferson as President occasionally attended Sunday worship services HELD IN THE CAPITOL, gave gov’t assistance to missionary work to the Indians, & as Virginia’s public education director, made sure the Bible was included in school curriculum. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562/20 "2005-02-03T14:57:36Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Washington btw was an active vestryman in his Episcopal church. However, for some reason, he refrained from taking Communion. Partly that might have been because he had to be. He was an elected official before Virginia’s Religious Freedom statute was passed. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-and-quote-on-religion/287562.md?page=2)