# Founding Fathers influencing today's politics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2019, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345 "2019-08-28T06:48:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/141 "2019-09-03T18:34:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Lincoln should have, though. Too soon? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/142 "2019-09-03T18:46:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They protect their own homes and families. > > That would mean abolishing the 2nd Ad for no good purpose. Some people keep and bear arms in order to protect their own homes and families. Other people keep and bear arms in order to threaten other people’s homes and families. Reasonable opponents of the Second Amendment feel that repealing it would significantly reduce the second group and that’s a good purpose. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/143 "2019-09-03T19:16:05Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > That’s kind of the point. You asserted that no one has changed their mind. I asked if I demonstrated that people have changed their mind, would you re-evaluate. You’ve answered in the negative. It’s your prerogative to have a faith based position, of course. Let’s say with rare exception nobody changes their mind about gun control. Just like with rare exception, nobody changes their mind about abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/144 "2019-09-03T19:18:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > In what way does the current armed populace (a well-regulated militia, according to the Const. and you) function in service of the free State? What efforts have been made to maintain it regulation and readiness since the inception of the TRtKaBA? What steps are being considered by its supporters to fix and maintain it? The Constitution doesn’t say anything about the militia besides [list=A][li]We need it, and [\*]the people have to have the right to keep and bear arms if we are to have one.[/list]If you are concerned that the militia as it currently stands isn’t securing the freedom of the state, by all means raise your concerns with your elected officials. Keep in mind that, according to the Constitution, you cannot address whatever problems you see with the militia by infringing on the right to keep and bear arms. [/li] > [@](#): > > I hope to see TRtKaBA significantly restricted or abolished in my lifetime. Seems the numbers of people who agree with that position are growing in size and vigor. Get back to us when you have a two-thirds majority in both the House and the Senate, or two-thirds of the state legislatures, and the approval of 38 states. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/145 "2019-09-03T19:22:59Z")
[quote=“Shodan, post:144, topic:839345”] The Constitution doesn’t say anything about the militia besides [list=A][li]We need it, and [\*]the people have to have the right to keep and bear arms if we are to have one.[/list][/li][/quote] Do please read the whole thing sometime, will you? Article 1, Section 8, Clause 15: > [@](#): > > The Congress shall have Power … To provide for calling forth the Militia **to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions.** See? They fucking \*said \*what it’s for. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/146 "2019-09-03T19:24:58Z")
First you say: > [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, the militia is well regulated, in the way the Constitution says. then you say: [quote=“Shodan, post:144, topic:839345”] The Constitution doesn’t say anything about the militia besides [list=A][li]We need it, and [\*]the people have to have the right to keep and bear arms if we are to have one.[/list][/li][/QUOTE] Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/147 "2019-09-03T19:25:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Reasonable opponents of the Second Amendment feel that repealing it would significantly reduce the second group and that’s a good purpose. It would also force the pro-gun arguments to stand on their own merit. Also a good purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/148 "2019-09-03T19:47:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Do please read the whole thing sometime, will you? Article 1, Section 8, Clause 15: > > See? They fucking \*said \*what it’s for. I should have said the Second Amendment doesn’t say. But still, if you are concerned that the militia will not be available for the purposes you mention, then you ought to raise those concerns with the government. Also consider if “we need to restrict gun ownership so they are better equipped” sounds like it makes sense, if you are hoping to use that argument. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > First you say: > > > [@](#): > > > > Yes, the militia is well regulated, in the way the Constitution says. > > then you say: > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > The Constitution doesn’t say anything about the militia besides > > We need it, and > > the people have to have the right to keep and bear arms if we are to have one. > > Which is it? Did one didn’t you understand? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/149 "2019-09-03T19:55:57Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > From who?.. Ze Germans? Robbers, home invasions, murderers, etc. Criminals. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/150 "2019-09-03T20:02:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Some people keep and bear arms in order to protect their own homes and families. Other people keep and bear arms in order to threaten other people’s homes and families. > > Reasonable opponents of the Second Amendment feel that repealing it would significantly reduce the second group and that’s a good purpose. True. There are 300,000,000 guns in the uSA. About 10000 are used form murder. So you’d ban that 299,990,000 to solve that 10000. And it wont. Gun control has never worked in the USA. And why do you want gun control? 1, to reduce suicides (biggest potion of gun deaths)? Well, I think suicide is both a tragedy and a right, and Japans seems to have no problem keeping it’s suicide rate well about the USAs with no guns. So, that’s a crappy reason. Lets get some more counseling and such out there. 1. To reduce Murder? Ok, but you see the violent crime rate has been going down for some time, while the number of guns owned is increasing. Hmmm. Maybe a few more reasonable restrictions, like on straw man sales might help, sure, why not? 2. To reduce mass killings? As I have proven, mass shootings are a product of the media, not guns. So, then, we’d have to get rid of the 1st Ad for that. Are you in favor? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/151 "2019-09-03T20:11:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If you are concerned that the militia as it currently stands isn’t securing the freedom of the state, by all means raise your concerns with your elected officials. Keep in mind that, according to the Constitution, you cannot address whatever problems you see with the militia by infringing on the right to keep and bear arms. I’m asking you, and any other supporter of the 2nd Amendment, why no concerted effort has been made to ensure the execution of this important charge of civic duty - i.e. a well-regulated militia - in the manner stipulated by the Constitution. Or do you believe that private gun ownership is the only requirement necessary for a well-regulated militia? Furthermore, do you believe those who are otherwise able but do not own guns are failing in their civic duty to protect the State? > [@Shodan](#): > > Get back to us when you have a two-thirds majority in both the House and the Senate, or two-thirds of the state legislatures, and the approval of 38 states. > > Regards, > Shodan I suspect it’ll be all over the news. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/152 "2019-09-03T20:18:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I should have said the Second Amendment doesn’t say. And that completely invalidates whatever point you thought you were making. You should have said that, too. > [@](#): > > But still, if you are concerned that the militia will not be available for the purposes you mention, then you ought to raise those concerns with the government. I’m not, because it became moot when we set up a standing army and a professional police force (the original concept of a militia included both). > [@](#): > > Also consider if “we need to restrict gun ownership so they are better equipped” sounds like it makes sense, if you are hoping to use that argument. I’m not, since it makes no sense, like any of your other strawmen. > [@](#): > > Did one didn’t you understand? That one. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/153 "2019-09-03T20:25:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Robbers, home invasions, murderers, etc. Criminals. Elvis1Lives was kind enough to provide the following: > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Do please read the whole thing sometime, will you? Article 1, Section 8, Clause 15: > > > [@](#): > > > > The Congress shall have Power … To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions. > > See? They fucking \*said \*what it’s for. Would you be kind enough to cite where the Constitution talks about: “Robbers, murderers, etc.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/154 "2019-09-03T20:27:50Z")
Or the part where it says the militia is there to \*\*\*be \*\*\*an insurrection, not to suppress it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/155 "2019-09-03T20:32:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > … > Would you be kind enough to cite where the Constitution talks about: “Robbers, murderers, etc.” A recent SCOTUS decision. The Constitution doesnt talk about your right to Privacy or a womans right to a abortion, either. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/156 "2019-09-03T20:33:47Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m asking you, and any other supporter of the 2nd Amendment, why no concerted effort has been made to ensure the execution of this important charge of civic duty - i.e. a well-regulated militia - in the manner stipulated by the Constitution. What evidence do you have that the militia isn’t working as it should? I’m open to being convinced. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/157 "2019-09-03T20:35:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > A recent SCOTUS decision. 5-4 on the predictable partisan lines, with an opinion creating it out of whole cloth written by a Justice who purported to deplore doing just that, and contrary to all existing jurisprudence on the subject. But \*not \*in the Constitution. > [@](#): > > The Constitution doesnt talk about your right to Privacy or a womans right to a abortion, either. [Due process clause.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantive_due_process) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/158 "2019-09-03T20:37:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > 5-4 on the predictable partisan lines, with an opinion creating it out of whole cloth written by a Justice who purported to deplore doing just that. But \*not \*the Constitution. > > [Due process clause.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantive_due_process) "life, liberty, or property, " which is privacy and abortions- how? And of course having your home invaded and you tortured, robbed and maybe killed does deprive you of all three. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/159 "2019-09-03T20:38:50Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I’m not, because it became moot when we set up a standing army and a professional police force (the original concept of a militia included both). Well, if you are OK with how the militia is currently set up, then there isn’t a problem. Perhaps you could reassure **Quicksilver**. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/160 "2019-09-03T20:53:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What evidence do you have that the militia isn’t working as it should? I’m open to being convinced. > > Regards, > Shodan > [@Shodan](#): > > Well, if you are OK with how the militia is currently set up, then there isn’t a problem. Perhaps you could reassure **Quicksilver**. > > Regards, > Shodan I admit, I’m a bit hung up on the “well-regulated” bit, and how it can possibly be interpreted to mean, ‘anybody with a gun’. And if that is the only requirement, of what use would such a “militia” be if called upon to protect the State in this day and age? I think back to recent World Wars, and even those drafted were provided training and guns before being sent to fight. I don’t recall, “must own gun”, on any recruiting poster. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345.md?page=9)