# Founding Fathers influencing today's politics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2019, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345 "2019-08-28T06:48:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/161 "2019-09-03T21:15:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > True. There are 300,000,000 guns in the uSA. About 10000 are used form murder. > > So you’d ban that 299,990,000 to solve that 10000. I would? I was unaware that I wanted to ban all guns. You’d think I would have read my previous posts on this issue in which I’ve said I wouldn’t support banning all guns - or even the majority of guns. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Gun control has never worked in the USA. We won’t know that until we try it. The NRA and its supporters have made sure that any efforts at gun control are kept as minimal and ineffective as possible. So it’s no surprise these token efforts produce minimal and ineffective results. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/162 "2019-09-03T21:19:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What evidence do you have that the militia isn’t working as it should? I’m open to being convinced. What militia are you talking about? The National Guard? Because I don’t see any connection between the National Guard and the Second Amendment. National Guardsmen use weapons that are issued to them by the government, not their own personal weapons. The same is true about various law enforcement agencies. What organization exists that requires its members to provide their own firearms and functions as a militia? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/163 "2019-09-03T22:04:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I would? I was unaware that I wanted to ban all guns. You’d think I would have read my previous posts on this issue in which I’ve said I wouldn’t support banning all guns - or even the majority of guns. > > We won’t know that until we try it. > > The NRA and its supporters have made sure that any efforts at gun control are kept as minimal and ineffective as possible. So it’s no surprise these token efforts produce minimal and ineffective results. Some areas banned all handguns and effectively banned any gun for home defense. No results. Several states, including CA have banned assault weapons. No reults. So, then tell, me, since banning all handguns, and banning assault weapons didnt work, what would _you_ do? and dont tell me to look back at others posts. Lay it out here, now. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/164 "2019-09-03T22:07:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What militia are you talking about? The National Guard? Because I don’t see any connection between the National Guard and the Second Amendment. National Guardsmen use weapons that are issued to them by the government, not their own personal weapons. The same is true about various law enforcement agencies. > > What organization exists that requires its members to provide their own firearms and functions as a militia? And the National gd is now part of the US army, it’s no longer even a pretense of a militia. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/165 "2019-09-03T22:28:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, if you are OK with how the militia is currently set up, then there isn’t a problem. It’s been called the National Guard for over a century. Why would I, or you, have a problem with that? Maybe you’d have better luck actually addressing actual arguments made by actual posters here. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/166 "2019-09-03T22:29:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > "life, liberty, or property, " which is privacy and abortions- how? Read the link. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > And of course having your home invaded and you tortured, robbed and maybe killed does deprive you of all three. By somebody with a gun? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/167 "2019-09-03T22:51:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t see any connection between the National Guard and the Second Amendment. National Guardsmen use weapons that are issued to them by the government And the government _is_ the people, this being a democracy and the Constitution \*starting _with an explanation of it and all that. That’s whose right it is and how it’s implemented - we as a nation need to have a ready military, it needs arms and regulation, therefore we have a right to have an armed and regulated military. It’s nothing new either, the Articles of Confederation_ spelled it out even more clearly, and so did the colonial governments. Go visit the Magazine next time you’re in Williamsburg for an example. What’s so hard about that? Nothing, unless you want a different conclusion and are contortedly trying to backfill your way to one. \*Footnote: The Articles, the constitution that was actually in effect for the Framers and that therefore likely guided their views, say: > [@](#): > > No vessel of war shall be kept up in time of peace by any State, except such number only, as shall be deemed necessary by the United States in Congress assembled, for the defense of such State, or its trade; nor shall any body of forces be kept up by any State in time of peace, except such number only, as in the judgement of the United States in Congress assembled, shall be deemed requisite to garrison the forts necessary for the defense of such State; but every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of filed pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage. Could that be any more clear? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/168 "2019-09-03T22:55:42Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Read the link. :rolleyes: > > By somebody with a gun? Indeed I did, and everyone agrees it was a stretch by SCOTUS. Or with a knife, if no one else has guns. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/169 "2019-09-04T01:17:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Or with a knife, if no one else has guns. Whoa… well that de-escalated quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Abatis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d78d45/32.png) [@Abatis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abatis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/170 "2019-09-04T03:19:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It would also force the pro-gun arguments to stand on their own merit. Also a good purpose. I’ve put up some in this thread, feel free to choose one or more to rebut. ---
**Author:** ![Abatis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d78d45/32.png) [@Abatis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abatis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/171 "2019-09-04T03:45:06Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m asking you, and any other supporter of the 2nd Amendment, why no concerted effort has been made to ensure the execution of this important charge of civic duty - i.e. a well-regulated militia - in the manner stipulated by the Constitution. Congress chose to override the militia laws that set-out that process and relieve all citizen impressment of militia duty. By all means lobby to have an effective militia law written and enacted. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Or do you believe that private gun ownership is the only requirement necessary for a well-regulated militia? Even when there was a militia law that laid out the requirements of _ENROLLED_ citizens, their duty was to provide themselves with a firearm in good working order, a supply of ammo and accessories to make the gun functional and a knapsack and appear with these items when called to muster or exercise. The state and federal government were responsible for establishing the organizational hierarchy and regimen of training. So yes, in the general sense, assuming the state and federal governments were derelict in their duties, a citizen’s militia duty could have been fulfilled simply by signing up and acquiring a gun and ammo. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Furthermore, do you believe those who are otherwise able but do not own guns are failing in their civic duty to protect the State? Given that the militia law mandated every able-bodied white male citizen\*, 18 to 45 years old was to enroll and when notified, provide himself with the required equipment, yes, if a citizen met the criteria, he was in violation for failing to fulfil his civic duty . . . \*[**there were exceptions**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21833707&postcount=78), elected officials, judges, postal workers, ferrymen, etc . > [@QuickSilver](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > Get back to us when you have a two-thirds majority in both the House and the Senate, or two-thirds of the state legislatures, and the approval of 38 states. > > I suspect it’ll be all over the news. I suspect aliens landing in Times Square will be reported first. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/172 "2019-09-04T05:46:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And the government _is_ the people, this being a democracy and the Constitution \*starting _with an explanation of it and all that. That’s whose right it is and how it’s implemented - we as a nation need to have a ready military, it needs arms and regulation, therefore we have a right to have an armed and regulated military. It’s nothing new either, the Articles of Confederation_ spelled it out even more clearly, and so did the colonial governments. Go visit the Magazine next time you’re in Williamsburg for an example. > > What’s so hard about that? Nothing, unless you want a different conclusion and are contortedly trying to backfill your way to one. > > \*Footnote: The Articles, the constitution that was actually in effect for the Framers and that therefore likely guided their views, say:Could that be any more clear? If I’m following you correctly, I disagree. Which should be clear; I’ve said in this thread that I believe the Second Amendment gives an individual right to own and carry firearms which is effectively unrelated to the existence of any militia or membership therein. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/173 "2019-09-04T05:55:16Z")
As long as we’re throwing ideas out here, I once read a book (sorry, it was a long time ago and I don’t remember the author or title) where the author presented an interesting interpretation of the Second Amendment. He said it guaranteed people the right to serve in the military. His argument was that there’s a close connection between groups which have reduced political and legal rights and groups which are restricted from military service. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/174 "2019-09-04T08:30:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I believe the Second Amendment gives an individual right to own and carry firearms which is effectively unrelated to the existence of any militia or membership therein. You can _believe_ whatever you like. But the thread topic is about what the convention delegates \*meant \*- and they were pretty clear about it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/175 "2019-09-04T12:18:11Z")
> [@Abatis](#): > > Congress chose to override the militia laws that set-out that process and relieve all citizen impressment of militia duty. By all means lobby to have an effective militia law written and enacted. I’d rather not, if it’s all the same to you. But you are at least the second person in this thread, who is clearly a gun rights advocate, who has impressed the duty of lobbying for a ‘functional citizen militia’ on someone who is clearly opposed to the idea of immutable gun rights. So I put the question back to you and yours: Why have you not lobbied the congress to re-instate a well-regulated militia in line with the letter and spirit of the 2nd A of the Constitution? > [@Abatis](#): > > I suspect aliens landing in Times Square will be reported first. As well it should! But since neither thoughts nor prayers are likely to have any effect on bringing about such a fantastic occurrence, that frees us up to continue to lobby for socio-political change with respect to gun laws. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/176 "2019-09-04T16:43:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So I put the question back to you and yours: Why have you not lobbied the congress to re-instate a well-regulated militia in line with the letter and spirit of the 2nd A of the Constitution? Again, what makes you think that we don’t have a currently well-regulated militia in accord with the letter and spirit of the Second Amendment? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/177 "2019-09-04T16:50:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You can _believe_ whatever you like. But the thread topic is about what the convention delegates \*meant \*- and they were pretty clear about it. He is correct. The original wording of the 2nd was simply to protect the rights to bear arms. However, the anti-standing army group insisted on adding the militia clause. The militia clause isnt there to limit the rights of individuals to bears arms it’s to limit the Federal governments right to a standing army by allowing the states to have militias. Now of course since every man was in the militia, the assumption was that they’d use those guns also in the militia. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/178 "2019-09-04T16:51:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Again, what makes you think that we don’t have a currently well-regulated militia in accord with the letter and spirit of the Second Amendment? In a few states we do, but the National Guard is part of the standing army, it has been Federalized. It is not, in any way shape or form a “militia” as the Founding Fathers thought of one. In fact they’d be horrified. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/179 "2019-09-04T16:54:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > In a few states we do, but the National Guard is part of the standing army, it has been Federalized. It is not, in any way shape or form a “militia” as the Founding Fathers thought of one. In fact they’d be horrified. As long as we’re reading the minds of the Founders, they’d be horrified at the destructive capacity of modern small arms, and horrified as to the prevalence and body count of mass shootings in America. And probably also horrified by race-mixing, gay people in public, and the way young people dress. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345/180 "2019-09-04T16:58:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You can _believe_ whatever you like. But the thread topic is about what the convention delegates \*meant \*- and they were pretty clear about it. That’s the problem with originalist arguments. You can say you know what the founding fathers meant but how does anyone really know what somebody else was thinking? All we can know is what they wrote down. And the text of the Second Amendment does not have a single clear meaning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-influencing-todays-politics/839345.md?page=10)