# Founding fathers mysticism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2001, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452 "2001-08-28T01:59:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/41 "2001-08-30T20:26:48Z")
Even further off the main thrust of the thread: > [@](#): > > People before the 20th century not quotable? I really feel sorry for you. My post was explicitly not about whether anybody was “quotable.” Nor whether they were worth reading. Never mind whether they are members of your personal canon of Great Thinkers. The post merely addressed the relatively narrow question of whether Disraeli (and incidentally others) is “a citable authority” in political arguments in the UK by examining whether he is actually cited in practice. > [@](#): > > try reading instead of writing, listening instead of talking. Given your post, I’m hardly inclined to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/42 "2001-08-31T07:18:43Z")
**Tedster** , ## Sorry I didn’t reply last night. I fell behind 2stepping back from my unsupported assertions. It might be impractical, and yes I understand that it would be impossible, but I’m attracted to the idea of having no written constitution at all. Stop laughing. I’m serious and far from an anarchist. Britain doesn’t have one and she hasn’t fallen into totalitarianism yet. I’m liberal. In general I want more democracy. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by **Humble Servant** \* > Back briefly to the Mansfield article linked: most Americans who do not think much about how political systems are best structured probably do think the Constitution is a good thing and a settled one. We learn the facts about it at school and we learn how it works today and we learn, rightly or wrongly, that the people who led the US in the Revolutionary War and through the crisis of birth did a pretty good job. Most Americans are able to ignore politics except once every four years and to get on with their personal business, lives and enthusiasms–most people don’t debate the Constitution because it works well enough from their perspective, making the debate for them closed. ## How do you know why people don’t debate the Constitution? It may fit into your worldview that people are are content with the Constitution but have you ever investigated? Because I have. The only numbers I found were [these surveys](http://www.portraitofamerica.com/html/poll-1066.html) conducted by Rasmussen Research for Portrait of America. Both report that a significant portion of the respondants favored updating the Constitution; 38% in 1999 and 37% in 2000. It would appear that for them the debate isn’t closed. **usurper** , ## I’m afraid it is impossible to debate with you since I haven’t read The Second Treatise on Government by John Locke. In case you miss it there is a heavy dose of sarcasm there. **Lemur866** , I think people get upset because they have an emotional investment in the Constitution. I don’t think there’s any doubt that there is an attachment to the Founders. To me it seems the point of this thread is to explore how strong that devotion is. Does it reach the level of a religion? I’m maintaining that it does, or more specifically that it is strong enough to cause people to abandon rational thinking. I intend to post an example of this behavior tomorrow ( because it’s getting late again ). In a hypothetical example if you were to heap abuse on me after jumping to the wrong conclusion about my beliefs and continued doing so rather than attempting to clear up your misunderstanding then I would wonder why you had abandoned rational discussion. It’s not the jumping to conclusions that lead me to believe that an ideological line is crossed. It’s their loss of composure. * * * Just my 2sense ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/43 "2001-08-31T13:20:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by usurper \* > \*\*Bonzer, > > People before the 20th century not quotable? I really feel sorry for you. > > Political people? Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Locke, Paine, Jefferson, Madison. > > Non political, Newton, Da Vinche(sp), Galileo, Edison. > > If you need more, try reading instead of writing, listening instead of talking. \*\* Your pity is surely misplaced. How often do Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Newton, Da Vinci, Galileo, Edison or even John Locke get quoted by contemporary Americans discussing politics? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Gazoo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/44 "2001-08-31T17:16:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ethilrist \* > \*\*Flame me for being a heretic, but whoever wins the war gets to write the history. The FF were criminals. John Hancock was a _smuggler_, for christ’s sake. That’s why he signed his name so big–it was a slap in the face to the King of England. The Boston Tea Party happened so that people who were desperate for tea would buy their smuggled, illegal goods. > \*\* John Hancock was a very successful businessman. He smuggled tea because the only other way to get it was to pay the outrageous taxes on tea. Those taxes were a large part of what started the Revolution. Almost everyone in the colonies who had any kind of money was in the smuggling of tea business. It’s like smuggling cigarettes from Canada (or in the Illinois case, from Indiana) to avoid the tax. It’s hardly in the same league as smuggling drugs or contraband. Another view of the Boston Tea Party - the English were going to force the colonists to sell their tea. The colonists weren’t going to let them get it off the boat. The ship’s Captain only had a few weeks to either get the tea off the boat or be forced to relinquish it, without getting any money. That’s why a few dozen men were able to get on a guarded ship and empty a huge amount of tea into the Boston harbor (the sailors apparently helped dump the tea with the ship’s captain’s approval). ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2001, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/45 "2001-09-02T04:46:35Z")
Or rather, I would post an example if anyone seemed interested in debating the point. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2001, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/46 "2001-09-02T14:37:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Great Gazoo \* > \*\* > John Hancock was a very successful businessman. He smuggled tea because the only other way to get it was to pay the outrageous taxes on tea. Those taxes were a large part of what started the Revolution. \*\* Well, the high price of tea for most of the period wasn’t due to any tax on tea (because tea was untaxed), but because the East-India company had a monopoly on supply. Later, the Tea Act was passed, which put a tax on tea, but also removed the East India Company’s monopoly, and actually lowered the price of tea. That was what the Boston Tea Party protested, because the Tea Act made tea more profitable to legally ship than smuggle. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Alex\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_B)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2001, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/47 "2001-09-02T17:10:24Z")
**usurpe** , you said > [@](#): > > Funny you should mention religion. I myself claim to follow no religious order. However, (here we go again) philosophers, and historians the world over will agree with my telling you that in Locke’s first work, > An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, > he proves the existence of God. The “Essay” took over twenty years to write. Please don’t tell me you have read it when next you post, it is 3 or 4 hundred pages long, and extremely deep reading. (as philosophy should be) I have a degree in philosophy, and have talked to many philosphers. I have never met anyone who thought that ANY PHILOSOPHER had PROVED the existence of God, let alone Locke. Just a thought Alex ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2001, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/48 "2001-09-05T18:03:18Z")
2sense wrote: > [@](#): > > Yes America has been successful, if we define success as wealth and power. Woo hoo! Wealth and power! Par-taaaay!! ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2001, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/49 "2001-09-05T23:14:27Z")
**tracer** , I thought I had a handle on your previous post. I took the exclamation points and bolding to indicate sarcasm. Now that you have brought this back to the front page with another exclamation point filled post I’m less sure than before. I don’t see the point of the latest. * * * Just my 2sense ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/50 "2001-09-06T03:32:17Z")
2sense wrote: > [@](#): > > **tracer** , > > I thought I had a handle on your previous post. Nobody has a handle on my previous post. It’s the wind, baby. > [@](#): > > Now that you have brought this back to the front page with another exclamation point filled post I’m less sure than before. I don’t see the point of the latest. Well – you say “wealth and power” as though these are **bad** things. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/51 "2001-09-06T05:18:46Z")
Any “mystical” regard for any group of mere humans, who scratch, crap and cheat on thier taxes/wives is foolish. But a few words of enthusiasm, if I might. How many revolutions have been led by men settled, comfortable and for the most part privileged? The oppressed risk little but miserable lives, these men risked losing everything and adorning a gallows for a political principle. And, most importantly, they were **not** of one mind, there is **no** “intent of the Founding Fathers”! They created a framework of surly cooperation, of compromise and half-a-loaf, so that people who had no reason to trust each others motives might cobble together a country. They ran the spectrum from my own sentimental favorite, fire-breathing Bolshevik Tom Paine to the snotty elitism of Alexander Hamilton. The whole scheme of checks and balances and power sharing derives directly from their unwillingness to let anybody get the whip hand. IMHO, the Declaration of Independence is as close to poetry as any political document has ever come. That said, there is nothing “sacred” about the Founding Fathers, they were as human as we, no more. And therein lies the glory. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2001, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/52 "2001-09-07T03:08:42Z")
When the pursuit of wealth and power leads to crimes against humanity then yeah, I’ve got a problem with that. Hopefully you do too, **tracer**. * * * Just my 2sense ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2001, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/53 "2001-09-07T22:05:18Z")
But you seem to be implying that the pursuit of wealth and power **normally** leads to crimes against humanity – that crimes against humanity are the rule, rather than the exception. It seems to me that the **lack** of wealth and power is what tends to drive an individual – or a nation – to lash out against others. “Fat and happy” ain’t just a cute saying about Santa Claus. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2001, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/54 "2001-09-08T02:19:35Z")
I wouldn’t want anyone to infer from my posts that the pursuit of wealth and power normally leads to barbaric behavior. I don’t believe that’s true. What I was trying to imply was that while the wealth and power the it has brought us can cause others to doubt me the injustice that went along hand in hand lends weight to my arguments against the system. * * * Just my 2sense ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2001, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452/55 "2001-09-08T02:21:23Z")
“the it” being “the system” Damnit [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/founding-fathers-mysticism/78452.md?page=2)