# Four Americans Murderd By Somali Pirates-Time to Get Serious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256 "2011-02-22T18:17:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/21 "2011-02-22T20:49:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > As for escorting ships I agree it’d be silly for a single, private sailboat to get its own destroyer dedicated to it. However, I see no reason why the Americans and other countries with ships in the area (there are several) could not arrange meeting points at either side of Somalia and any ships wishing an escort collect there and they go as a group. As mentioned in [this](http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/22/somalia.us.yacht/#) CNN article though it’s not just _around_ Somalia that the attacks are occuring. It’s the whole of the Arabian Sea and much of the western Indian Ocean from India clear to Kenya and beyond. \*Piracy has flourished off Somalia, which has not had an effective government for two decades. While piracy in the Indian Ocean has taken place for years close to the Somali coast, “in 2008 we saw a very marked and rapid shift into the Gulf of Aden, where Somali pirates were attacking and hijacking vessels very, very regularly,” said Mody of the International Maritime Bureau. International navies combating piracy have been fairly successful in setting up a patrolled transit corridor through the Gulf of Aden, Mody and Fox said. But the pirates’ activities then shifted into the southern Red Sea, Indian Ocean and the Arabian Sea area, Mody said. In addition, there was “a very large increase” in pirate attacks between 2008 and 2009, although the increase did not continue into 2010, Mody said. He noted that in the first few months of 2010, virtually no pirate hijackings were reported. So far in 2011, “we have already seen more than 50 attacks carried out,” he said. “From 2008, what we’ve seen is they have evolved … and increased their capabilities.” International counterpiracy teams do what they can to control pirate activities in the region, he said, but “the area in which the Somali pirates are threatening is far too large for a concentrated naval effort like what is happening in the Gulf of Aden, so the navies are mostly relying on a lot of intelligence gathering and targeting vessels based on the intelligence,” Mody said. The entire United States east of the Mississippi River could fit into the Somali basin, Fox said. “It’s a vast, vast area.” Currently, 34 warships patrol the region under 15 flags and work well together, he said, but “there’s a lot of places where we are not.”\* ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/22 "2011-02-22T21:19:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The factual answer to your question is that there is more ocean and more commercial / civilian boats spread around it than there are US Navy ships. And also the area of pirate operatios gonas fsr as india now. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/23 "2011-02-22T21:29:18Z")
The sad truth which probably goes the farthest in explaining the outcome of this particular incident more than anything else is that our and other nation’s anti-piracy efforts are having an impact. It’s getting increasingly difficult for them to ply their trade. They will become more ruthless, make fewer mistakes and react in less compliant ways when they are caught, as was the case here. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/24 "2011-02-22T21:43:52Z")
Why not solve the problem the way the Spanish did, then the W. and E. India Companies, then the US in WW2 : with convoys ? Have the tankers and cargoes travel in large packs, with one or two military vessels among them. End of problem, and no need to keep dozens of warships patrolling the waters either. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/25 "2011-02-22T23:02:21Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Why not solve the problem the way the Spanish did, then the W. and E. India Companies, then the US in WW2 : with convoys ? Have the tankers and cargoes travel in large packs, with one or two military vessels among them. End of problem, and no need to keep dozens of warships patrolling the waters either. That appears to be the next [stage](http://www.eunavfor.eu/about-us/mschoa/). “A further initiative is the introduction of Group Transits where vessels are coordinated to transit through high risk areas overnight when attacks are reduced. This enables military forces to ‘sanitize’ the area ahead of the merchant ships. MSC-HOA will also identify particularly vulnerable shipping and coordinate appropriate protection arrangements, either from within EU NAVFOR, or other forces in the region.” While that may protect most shipping, it still leaves independent operators like fishing trawlers vulnerable. I am advocating for a total blockade of the coast and cracking down hard on the pirates and other illegal vessels. But the plan is still an improvement over the status quo. As I said in the Pit thread, it is pathetic this situation has been allowed to continue for almost two decades now. The European task force was not even started until 2007, and only has 5 - 10 attack ships on station, and they are primarily to escort World Food Program and other humanitarian aid ships. Anti-piracy efforts are secondary, and protecting Somali fishing waters from illegal trawlers and polluters at the bottom of the list. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/26 "2011-02-22T23:02:26Z")
Why not _hang them_, as general enemies of Mankind, insofar as they seem to be at war with the World? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/27 "2011-02-22T23:05:28Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Why not _hang them_, as general enemies of Mankind, insofar as they seem to be at war with the World? Because more will just step forward, as long as they have little to no other way of prospering and they see a reasonable chance of not being the guy who gets hung. They are a symptom as much as they are a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/28 "2011-02-22T23:33:16Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Why not solve the problem the way the Spanish did, then the W. and E. India Companies, then the US in WW2 : with convoys ? Have the tankers and cargoes travel in large packs, with one or two military vessels among them. End of problem, and no need to keep dozens of warships patrolling the waters either. It would still need dozens of warships, only for convoy escort duty. Convoys are also a very inefficient way of transporting freight. Cargo ships which would otherwise be free to come and go as they please have to wait at port until enough cargo ships and escorts to form up a convoy are ready. The port that a convoy arrives at also can’t be unloading ships every day as they come and go, instead they have the entire convoy full of cargo arrive all at once so vessels have to queue up to wait their turn to unload. Convoys only make sense if ships would otherwise be picked off in large numbers by submarines or pirates. Convoys on their own didn’t solve problems with piracy or submarines either; they just lessened the damage being done. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/29 "2011-02-22T23:34:35Z")
Oh, well, if they’re _American_ then it must be time to get serious. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/30 "2011-02-23T00:14:31Z")
These pirates are more intrepid than a lot of people realize. They are not just heading out from the beach when they spot a freighter. They are not just grabbing ships in the Gulf of Aden and along the Somali coast, but far out in the Indian Ocean. The area of threatened seas is huge, on the order of a few million square miles. The American yacht was en route from India to Oman when it was seized, hundreds of miles from Somalia. Others have been taken as far south as Mozambique, as far east as the Maldives. Vessels may spend _weeks_ at a time traversing this zone. Of course most never see pirates–but the idea that any substantial fraction of this traffic could be directly protected by naval escorts is impractical in the extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/31 "2011-02-23T01:06:52Z")
Regardless of the people’s foolish actions they are still human beings and deserve to be protected. In addition this is a humiliating sign for our Republic and to show our strength we must take vigourous action. Perhaps a multinational force needs to occupy Somalia (at least outside of the stable governments of Puntland and Somaliland which we should recognize NOW) and then purge all the Islamic Courts and pirates. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/32 "2011-02-23T01:23:42Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Regardless of the people’s foolish actions they are still human beings and deserve to be protected. In addition this is a humiliating sign for our Republic and to show our strength we must take vigourous action. Perhaps a multinational force needs to occupy Somalia (at least outside of the stable governments of Puntland and Somaliland which we should recognize NOW) and then purge all the Islamic Courts and pirates. What you mean “we”, Kemosabe? I see no reason why my country’s military should do anything of the sort. You were humiliated and need to embark on another mulit-billion dollar boondoggle - partly on my dime - in order to show your strength? Bugger that for a game of soldiers. No, I don’t know what to do about pirates in this day and age, but I’m pretty sure that occupying their country of origin is overdoing it a bit. I think the easiest thing to do would be to arm the crew or have a couple of Marines or mercenaries aboard, maybe have some sort of machine gun under a tarp on the bow or something. If nothing happens, great. If something happens, the crew has a fighting chance. It would be cheaper than either an escort or your invasion, too. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/33 "2011-02-23T01:49:49Z")
Time to get serious about not fucking going where the pirates are. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/34 "2011-02-23T01:54:23Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > What you mean “we”, Kemosabe? I see no reason why my country’s military should do anything of the sort. You were humiliated and need to embark on another mulit-billion dollar boondoggle - partly on my dime - in order to show your strength? Bugger that for a game of soldiers. No, I don’t know what to do about pirates in this day and age, but I’m pretty sure that occupying their country of origin is overdoing it a bit. I think the easiest thing to do would be to arm the crew or have a couple of Marines or mercenaries aboard, maybe have some sort of machine gun under a tarp on the bow or something. If nothing happens, great. If something happens, the crew has a fighting chance. It would be cheaper than either an escort or your invasion, too. We need to cut off the head of the snake, and wipe out the source. > [@DigitalC](#): > > Time to get serious about not fucking going where the pirates are. You do realize its a vital trade routes. And I’m not prepared to surrender to a bunch of bandits. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/35 "2011-02-23T01:57:35Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > I think the easiest thing to do would be to arm the crew or have a couple of Marines or mercenaries aboard, maybe have some sort of machine gun under a tarp on the bow or something. If nothing happens, great. If something happens, the crew has a fighting chance. It would be cheaper than either an escort or your invasion, too. It would both be very expensive - that’s a lot of ships, a lot of guns, and a lot of soldiers - and it’s my understanding that most ports wouldn’t allow such an armed ship to dock, so there wouldn’t be any point to going there anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/36 "2011-02-23T02:04:30Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > We need to cut off the head of the snake, and wipe out the source. What makes you think there IS a "head? These are guys raiding from a failed state; they aren’t agents sent to harass shipping from some dictator whom we can shoot. Nor do they all live in some big black scary looking fortress we can bomb. As for occupying the country, that will kill far more people (including ours) and cost far more money than piracy does. And how long do you expect to keep it up? America is already in serious financial trouble; the last thing it needs is yet another military quagmire and financial sinkhole. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/37 "2011-02-23T02:08:32Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > You do realize its a vital trade routes. And I’m not prepared to surrender to a bunch of bandits. That’s not what happened to the jackasses who just got killed. When people do stupid things like going to somalia in a yatch or going hiking in Iran and bad shit happens to them the only thing to do is shrug your shoulders and use them as an example of what not to do. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/38 "2011-02-23T02:19:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What makes you think there IS a "head? These are guys raiding from a failed state; they aren’t agents sent to harass shipping from some dictator whom we can shoot. Nor do they all live in some big black scary looking fortress we can bomb. > > As for occupying the country, that will kill far more people (including ours) and cost far more money than piracy does. And how long do you expect to keep it up? America is already in serious financial trouble; the last thing it needs is yet another military quagmire and financial sinkhole. We will help them rebuild and _establish_ a stable government. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/39 "2011-02-23T02:21:15Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > We will help them rebuild and _establish_ a stable government. A democratic form of government, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256/40 "2011-02-23T02:29:27Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > It would still need dozens of warships, only for convoy escort duty. Convoys are also a very inefficient way of transporting freight. Cargo ships which would otherwise be free to come and go as they please have to wait at port until enough cargo ships and escorts to form up a convoy are ready. The port that a convoy arrives at also can’t be unloading ships every day as they come and go, instead they have the entire convoy full of cargo arrive all at once so vessels have to queue up to wait their turn to unload. Convoys only make sense if ships would otherwise be picked off in large numbers by submarines or pirates. Convoys on their own didn’t solve problems with piracy or submarines either; they just lessened the damage being done. Nonsense. Nobody said every ship in the convoy had to leave Norfolk and make way for Singapore ALL AT ONCE. Last time I checked, the pirates weren’t blockading ports :). They’d just need to form up upon entering the dangerous waters, then resume their original nav plan once they’re in the clear. Worst case scenario, they’d lose a few hours or so as the proto-convoy waits for all the ships in an arbitrary area to be corralled in. The only other downside would be that the entire convoy would have to adopt the pace of the slowest ship. I’m guessing that’s still better than being captured by pirates :p. As for not solving the problem, well, yeah. It’s pure damage control - but that’s pretty much all that can be done short of invading Somalia and turning it into an actual country somehow. I wouldn’t hold my breath. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-americans-murderd-by-somali-pirates-time-to-get-serious/572256.md?page=3)