# Four Members of Congress Sue To Declare Filibuster Unconstitutional **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116 "2012-05-16T17:39:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/81 "2012-05-17T19:52:14Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Right, and I’m saying you’re still wrong. > > It’s wrong to unilaterally escalate the average number of filibusters in the service of obstructionism. > > It’s not wrong to retaliate in kind, in an attempt to punish obstructionism. Im still saying youre wrong. Both sides do it. Dems are not bitching cause they cant stop it. Reps tried to stop it earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/82 "2012-05-17T19:58:44Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Both sides do it. Barry Bonds and Mario Mendoza were both baseball players with alliterative names. I guess they are really just the same. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/83 "2012-05-17T20:02:17Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > So … um, what was the final resolution on that? Voted down? Got a tally of the voting rolls on that one? – I’d be extremely interested to see exactly which Senators were the dick-holes. Don’t think it ever came to vote. On edit: [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/us/politics/27cong.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/us/politics/27cong.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/84 "2012-05-17T20:04:31Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Senator Tom Udall [moved to change the rules](http://www.tomudall.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=740) on the opening day of the present Session. These new rules would not even have eliminated the filibuster, just the “procedural” filibuster. This motion itself could not have filibustered so would have passed with support from 50 Senators plus Biden. > > What happened? Were four or more Democrat Senators scared into thinking the Bullshit machine would cost them their jobs if they supported the bill? The whole concept of new rules being adopted on the first day of a new session of the Senate is flawed. Employing the nuclear option on day one of a new session of the Senate is exactly the same as employing the nuclear option on any other day of session. My guess is that senators came to this conclusion and found no reason that they had to act on his proposal at all. Note: by nuclear option, I mean employing the general rules of the Senate to allow 51 members to vote for a precedent that would overrule a specific rule of the Senate that would require 67 votes to actually rewrite. In other words, the use of some general rules in order to violate other more specific rules. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/85 "2012-05-17T20:09:44Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > So … um, what was the final resolution on that? Voted down? Got a tally of the voting rolls on that one? – I’d be extremely interested to see exactly which Senators were the dick-holes. … when thwarted on the removal of filibuster vote, the Udall faction introduced a couple of other bills with changes to procedures: > **[Filibuster reform votes expected today - BlueOregon](http://www.blueoregon.com/2011/01/filibuster-reform-votes-expected-today/)** > > Today, votes are expected on the filibuster reform efforts led by Senators Jeff Merkley, Tom Udall (D-NM), and Tom Harkin (D-IA). Unfortunately, however, the procedural pathway has gotten bollixed up. It's complex, and I don't ... Update: The Udall/Merkley/Harkin filibuster reform package failed with 44 votes in favor, 51 against. The stand-alone Merkley “talking filibuster” proposal failed with 46 votes in favor, 49 against. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/86 "2012-05-17T20:14:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Actually he is correct. > > Certainly Dems use it but each significant bump up in the past 30 years has been by republicans. Dems then kinda keep it at that level till the next republican bump. > > Look at a chart of it: [http://talkingpointsmemo.com/images/cloture-stats-chart2.jpg](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/images/cloture-stats-chart2.jpg) > > - In 1982 republicans gain control and dems keep the level about even with the previous decade. > > - In 1988 dems take control and after a few years reps spike the number to record levels. > > - In 1996 reps gain control and levels stay roughly even with the record the reps got. > > - In 2008 dems gain control and the reps _substantially_ raise the number again. > [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not a moderator, I’m just saying that this board doesn’t tend to adopt the common incoherence of many other message boards. > > If one person steals 65 cars, and another person steals 140 cars, are you not willing to say that the second person is a worse thief than the first? [Look at this chart again and tell me there’s no difference between the two thieves.](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/images/cloture-stats-chart2.jpg) As for the OP, I agree with those suggesting that the Court should stay out of Congress’s business. And I’m against the “gentleman’s filibuster” (i.e., the procedural filibuster), although I don’t think it’s unconstitutional. But the charts being cited don’t necessarily support the proposition they’re being cited for. First, the charts show _cloture votes_, not filibusters. Not every filibuster gets a cloture vote. And not every cloture vote is used to stop a filibuster. So it may be true that filibusters have become increasingly common. But these charts don’t show that; they show that _cloture votes_ have become increasingly more common. Instead of showing that each successive minority party uses the filibuster more often, the charts actually show that each successive majority party tries to restrict debate more often. Second, I’m a little baffled by **Whack-a-Mole** ’s assertion that the charts show that Republicans increase the number of filibusters, and then Democrats maintain that number, and then Republicans increase it again. That’s simply not consistent with the numbers presented in the charts. Third, I think the charts unfairly compare pre-1975 cloture votes with post-1975 cloture votes. As far as I can tell, [the procedural filibuster was instituted in 1975](http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1696&dat=19750313&id=UrsdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2EYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6955,2192227). So it’s unfair to compare the number of filibusters prior to 1975, with the number of filibusters after 1975, when filibusters became much, much easier. That also means that before 1975, cloture typically would not have been used to end a filibuster. The whole point of a filibuster was that one person starts talking and refuses to allow anyone else to bring up any official business, including cloture votes. So cloture could only be invoked _before_ a filibuster started. It could not be used to end a filibuster in progress. (That obviously changed in 1975.) It’s also unfair to compare pre- and post-1975 because the number of votes necessary to invoke cloture changed from 2/3rds to 3/5ths. You normally wouldn’t expect cloture to be invoked unless a) the majority leader thought he/she had sufficient votes to win; or b) they were doing it for some political reason. So there probably wouldn’t be as many votes to invoke cloture before the required number of votes was dropped to 3/5ths. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/87 "2012-05-17T20:19:39Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Barry Bonds and Mario Mendoza were both baseball players with alliterative names. I guess they are really just the same. Strawmen burn hot and fast. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/88 "2012-05-17T20:19:56Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > So … um, what was the final resolution on that? Voted down? Got a tally of the voting rolls on that one? – I’d be extremely interested to see exactly which Senators were the dick-holes. Failed to pass. It was Senate Resolution 8. It failed 84-12, with four senators not voting. It’s easier to list those who did vote it: the sponsor, Tom Harkin (D-NM); co-sponsors, Barbara Michulski (D-MD), Dick Durbin (D-IL), Tom Udall (D-NM), and Jeanne Shaheen (D-NH); and the following: Begich (D-AK) Blumenthal (D-CT) Gillibrand (D-NY) Kerry (D-MA) Kohl (D-WI), Lautenberg (D-NJ) Lieberman (ID-CT) Only eleven Democrats and one Independent (a former Democrat who caucuses with the Dems) voted YEA. Feinstein, Hutchinson, Inouye, and McCain did not vote. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/89 "2012-05-17T20:20:31Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Im still saying youre wrong. Both sides do it. Dems are not bitching cause they cant stop it. Reps tried to stop it earlier. The filibuster itself, used sparingly, is a useful check on a majority. Escalating the use of the filibuster (by double, in many cases) as an obstructionist tactic is the actual wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/90 "2012-05-17T20:23:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Failed to pass. > > It was Senate Resolution 8. > > It failed 84-12, with four senators not voting. > > It’s easier to list those who did vote it: the sponsor, Tom Harkin (D-NM); co-sponsors, Barbara Michulski (D-MD), Dick Durbin (D-IL), Tom Udall (D-NM), and Jeanne Shaheen (D-NH); and the following: > > Begich (D-AK) > Blumenthal (D-CT) > Gillibrand (D-NY) > Kerry (D-MA) > Kohl (D-WI), > Lautenberg (D-NJ) > Lieberman (ID-CT) > > Only eleven Democrats and one Independent (a former Democrat who caucuses with the Dems) voted YEA. Feinstein, Hutchinson, Inouye, and McCain did not vote. Jesus. What a pack of wussies the Senate is. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/91 "2012-05-17T20:27:11Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Strawmen burn hot and fast. Worst arguments have few words. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/92 "2012-05-17T20:30:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Failed to pass. > > It was Senate Resolution 8. > > It failed 84-12, with four senators not voting. > > It’s easier to list those who did vote it: the sponsor, Tom Harkin (D-NM); co-sponsors, Barbara Michulski (D-MD), Dick Durbin (D-IL), Tom Udall (D-NM), and Jeanne Shaheen (D-NH); and the following: > > Begich (D-AK) > Blumenthal (D-CT) > Gillibrand (D-NY) > Kerry (D-MA) > Kohl (D-WI), > Lautenberg (D-NJ) > Lieberman (ID-CT) > > Only eleven Democrats and one Independent (a former Democrat who caucuses with the Dems) voted YEA. Feinstein, Hutchinson, Inouye, and McCain did not vote. It should have been filibustered. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/93 "2012-05-17T20:31:51Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Worst arguments have few words. Apparently, you are the expert on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/94 "2012-05-17T20:33:48Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > The filibuster itself, used sparingly, is a useful check on a majority. > > Escalating the use of the filibuster (by double, in many cases) as an obstructionist tactic is the actual wrong. If Reps take the White House, guess what they have to look forward too… The same argument is being said differently over and over. Doesnt matter how many different ways you say it. All I hear so far is Kool Aid rebuttals. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/95 "2012-05-17T20:42:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It should have been filibustered. If you check out my link from earlier, it talks about [Senators who won concessions on revisions to the filibuster rules by … uhhh, … filibustering the changes](http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1696&dat=19750313&id=UrsdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2EYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6955,2192227). Delicious. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/96 "2012-05-17T21:04:00Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > Second, I’m a little baffled by **Whack-a-Mole** ’s assertion that the charts show that Republicans increase the number of filibusters, and then Democrats maintain that number, and then Republicans increase it again. That’s simply not consistent with the numbers presented in the charts. Where is it wrong? I am not saying it is an exact thing but you can see the trend pretty clearly (_especially_ in the latest switch to a republican minority). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/97 "2012-05-17T21:22:53Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > If Reps take the White House, guess what they have to look forward too… > > The same argument is being said differently over and over. Doesnt matter how many different ways you say it. > > All I hear so far is Kool Aid rebuttals. If you have not noticed the incredible amount of obstructionism being done by the republicans in the senate since they lost it in 2008 you have not been paying attention. They have nearly doubled the number of filibusters. They are so intent on blocking anything from getting done they are [blocking stuff they used to support](http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/04/24/24-policies-that-republicans-supported-before-they-were-against-them/). In your world this is all equivalent to what dems have done. One has to wonder who is the one drinking the Kool Aid (hint, go look in a mirror). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/98 "2012-05-17T21:28:29Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > First, the charts show _cloture votes_, not filibusters. … they show that _cloture votes_ have become increasingly more common. This is a legitimate point, but since the vast majority of filibusters are procedural only, how can one count the number of dogs that literally are not barking? > [@dngnb8](#): > > Apparently, you are the expert on this topic. No u r ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/99 "2012-05-17T21:48:12Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Worst arguments have few words. > [@Ravenman](#): > > No u r Ironic, isnt it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116/100 "2012-05-17T21:48:36Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Where is it wrong? > > I am not saying it is an exact thing but you can see the trend pretty clearly (_especially_ in the latest switch to a republican minority). Which of the three bars on that chart are you referring to in your original analysis? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-members-of-congress-sue-to-declare-filibuster-unconstitutional/622116.md?page=6)