# Four Seattle police officers ambushed and shot dead **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 29, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369 "2009-11-29T19:53:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/241 "2009-12-01T15:25:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It doesn’t take a doctor to simply know the definition of a word. But it does take one to make a diagnosis. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/242 "2009-12-01T15:31:03Z")
> [@Who\_me\_1](#): > > But it does take one to make a diagnosis. Anyone who has delusions that he is Jesus Christ is psychotic by definition. This is a specious argument you’re trying to make. It’s like me saying that a person who can’t see is blind, and you telling me I can’t know that because I’m not a doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/243 "2009-12-01T15:34:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Anyone who has delusions that he is Jesus Christ is psychotic by definition. This is a specious argument you’re trying to make. It’s like me saying that a person who can’t see is blind, and you telling me I can’t know that because I’m not a doctor. Sure… doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/244 "2009-12-01T16:44:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They said he was “motivated by visions that he was Jesus Christ and that the world was on the verge of apocalypse.” That was the conclusion of investigators in the earlier child-rape case. I’m assuming that investigation involved a psyche evaluation. > > If he indeed believed those things, then he was _ipso facto_ psychotic. True, but unimportant. After he (or his psychosis) went into the shop and shot 4 people, he became little more than a rabid dog. For the good of society at large, he had to be controlled, and since he insisted on pressing the issue with the arresting officer, the easiest, safest way to control him was to kill him. _shrug_ Sounds fine to me. No doubt at this point, you’re going to blather about the million possible ways this could happen to me, or strenuously object that I’m saying that cops should be allowed to walk up and shoot people in the head, or otherwise attempt to make Clemmons look like an Everyman victim of the system, to which I say: :rolleyes:. He was a career violent criminal, and he got exactly what he deserved. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/245 "2009-12-01T16:44:40Z")
Well, just so we know what we’re doing here, **Annie**. You propose a “special class” of citizen, or non-citizen, for whom the ordinary standards of law do not apply, based on your personal repugnance for the crime alleged. A person who fits into the special class no longer has any actual rights, like due process, like trial by jury, any of that. And that special class isn’t judged, it is simply a matter of general revulsion, the probability of guilt is sufficient, we just have to be “pretty sure” he’s guilty, and all bets are off. Used to be, even in my living memory, that a black man accused of raping a white woman fit into that “special class”. Those days are gone now, thankfully, but you would like to revive the custom without racial animus, and apply it to crimes against certain persons, policemen. Will it apply only to policemen? Not, say, doctors? Children? Clergy? I don’t think this is a very good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/246 "2009-12-01T16:51:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, just so we know what we’re doing here, **Annie**. You propose a “special class” of citizen, or non-citizen, for whom the ordinary standards of law do not apply, based on your personal repugnance for the crime alleged. A person who fits into the special class no longer has any actual rights, like due process, like trial by jury, any of that. And that special class isn’t judged, it is simply a matter of general revulsion, the probability of guilt is sufficient, we just have to be “pretty sure” he’s guilty, and all bets are off. > > Used to be, even in my living memory, that a black man accused of raping a white woman fit into that “special class”. Those days are gone now, thankfully, but you would like to revive the custom without racial animus, and apply it to crimes against certain persons, policemen. Will it apply only to policemen? Not, say, doctors? Children? Clergy? > > I don’t think this is a very good idea. Look. Clemmons was NOT a maligned, misunderstood victim. He was a recidivist criminal thug. That much is agreed upon by everyone. He was shot during a manhunt in which I’m certain everyone knew he was armed and dangerous. In police-speak, that means (rightfully) that he gets - maybe - ONE chance. And if he acts suspiciously, or provides the cop with the tiniest little reason to think he’s going for a weapon, he’s dead meat. Again, do not try to make this guy out as a misunderstood, wrongly-accused victim. He’s not. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/247 "2009-12-01T16:51:47Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > gets out on bail and cold bloodedly kills four innocent people? _allegedly_ killed four people. > [@](#): > > And I am glad he is dead. I’m not. I’d have much rather have maybe found out what motivated the guy, if he indeed did the crime. > [@Ogre](#): > > Again, do not try to make this guy out as a misunderstood, wrongly-accused victim. He’s not. Certainly not a victim, but we’ll never really know if he was wrongly accused of the shootings. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/248 "2009-12-01T16:53:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Used to be, even in my living memory, that a black man accused of raping a white woman fit into that “special class”. Those days are gone now, thankfully, but you would like to revive the custom without racial animus, and apply it to crimes against certain persons, policemen. Will it apply only to policemen? Not, say, doctors? Children? Clergy? > > I don’t think this is a very good idea. Liberals, clearly. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/249 "2009-12-01T16:54:13Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > True, but unimportant. After he (or his psychosis) went into the shop and shot 4 people, he became little more than a rabid dog. For the good of society at large, he had to be controlled, and since he insisted on pressing the issue with the arresting officer, the easiest, safest way to control him was to kill him. _shrug_ Sounds fine to me. > > No doubt at this point, you’re going to blather about the million possible ways this could happen to me, or strenuously object that I’m saying that cops should be allowed to walk up and shoot people in the head, or otherwise attempt to make Clemmons look like an Everyman victim of the system, to which I say: :rolleyes:. He was a career violent criminal, and he got exactly what he deserved. I never said he should be let go, so this whole post is a strawman. I said he was dangerous, and yes, a rabid dog is a valid analogy. I’m just saying that the moral judgements are meaningless since this guy had no control over his psychosis. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/250 "2009-12-01T16:55:30Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Look. Clemmons was NOT a maligned, misunderstood victim. He was a recidivist criminal thug. That much is agreed upon by everyone. He was shot during a manhunt in which I’m certain everyone knew he was armed and dangerous. In police-speak, that means (rightfully) that he gets - maybe - ONE chance. And if he acts suspiciously, or provides the cop with the tiniest little reason to think he’s going for a weapon, he’s dead meat. > > Again, do not try to make this guy out as a misunderstood, wrongly-accused victim. He’s not. I haven’t seen anyone trying to do that. These are two consecutive posts by you which attempt to refute positions nobody has taken. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/251 "2009-12-01T17:02:09Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > …Again, do not try to make this guy out as a misunderstood, wrongly-accused victim. He’s not. I am making him out to be a human being, with a set of rights that we have determined to grant each other, on no other basis but that. And we say, do we not, that those rights cannot be taken away, nor can they be surrendered. We hold those truths to be self-evident, don’t we? Is that hard to live up to, in certain circumstances? You bet it its, that’s why many other places, they don’t even try. I have made no assertions as to whether or not he is misunderstood, or wrongly accused. Kindly confine your remarks to things I actually say, if you don’t mind terribly. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/252 "2009-12-01T17:09:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The investigators themselves said he was psychotic. You take a shred of actual evidence, and use it to make a clinical, and a moral, judgment, about the murderer’s responsibility for his actions. It’s incredibly silly, poor logic, based on assumptions, and, as those of us who know you, exactly like you. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/253 "2009-12-01T17:14:04Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > It’ll be the year 2525 before they actually get executed. How wrong you were. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/254 "2009-12-01T17:17:37Z")
**Hamlet:** Excuse, but how is your judgement any less superficial? Have you his psychiatric reports in front of you? Some special information denied the rest of us? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/255 "2009-12-01T17:18:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I am making him out to be a human being, with a set of rights that we have determined to grant each other, on no other basis but that. And we say, do we not, that those rights cannot be taken away, nor can they be surrendered. We hold those truths to be self-evident, don’t we? Is that hard to live up to, in certain circumstances? You bet it its, that’s why many other places, they don’t even try. > > I have made no assertions as to whether or not he is misunderstood, or wrongly accused. Kindly confine your remarks to things I actually say, if you don’t mind terribly. You poisoned the well, partner. You explicitly compared this case to that of a black man accused of raping a white woman in the mid 20th century. Yeah, you did. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/256 "2009-12-01T17:30:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Hamlet:** > > Excuse, but how is your judgement any less superficial? Have you his psychiatric reports in front of you? Some special information denied the rest of us? A wise man once said, not too long ago: “Kindly confine your remarks to things I actually say, if you don’t mind terribly.” Pretty good advice, isn’t it. I haven’t made a judgment about his mental state, his culpability, or his responsibility for his actions. That was Dio, who concluded, based on scant evidence, that he was indeed psychotic and not responsible for his actions. Mayhap you should bring that up with him. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/257 "2009-12-01T17:35:26Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > You poisoned the well, partner. You explicitly compared this case to that of a black man accused of raping a white woman in the mid 20th century. > > Yeah, you did. He was comparing the _killing of police officers_ to the murder of black men accused of raping white women\*. \*not that you had to be accused of so much as raping a white woman. Whistling was more than enough. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/258 "2009-12-01T17:37:25Z")
**Hamlet:** Oh, come now! You were clearly speaking in rebuttal, denying **Dio** ’s point on the basis of a lack of evidence. Do you want to claim now that you were merely refuting that point and not offering its opposite? That would be rather coy, wouldn’t it? Seeing as you don’t offer any alternative? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/259 "2009-12-01T17:41:58Z")
The article I read this morning discussed Huckabee’s alarming insistence on freeing murderers, rapists, and all manner of other scum that had been put behind bars at great taxpayer expense and after deliberation by juries of their peers. In other words, by due process. His reasons for doing this were largely based on his religious convictions, which makes him delusional at best, and on the recommendations of Baptist preachers in his home state, which makes him criminal in my book. When a county prosecutor sent him a letter suggesting that Huckabee’s decision-making process was fatally flawed, and suggesting that he should explain why he was freeing these felons and psychos on the public, an aide replied that when the governor read the letter, he “laughed out loud” and requested that the aide draft a reply. The aide wished the prosecutor well in his life “on a reduced caffeine diet”. So how do you feel now, you sanctimonious pricks? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/260 "2009-12-01T17:43:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Hamlet:** > > Oh, come now! You were clearly speaking in rebuttal, denying **Dio** ’s point on the basis of a lack of evidence. Do you want to claim now that you were merely refuting that point and not offering its opposite? That would be rather coy, wouldn’t it? Seeing as you don’t offer any alternative? **luci** , I like you. So please stop putting words or intentions into my posts that aren’t there. It does not become you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369.md?page=14)