# Four Seattle police officers ambushed and shot dead **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 29, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369 "2009-11-29T19:53:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/261 "2009-12-01T17:46:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He was comparing the _killing of police officers_ to the murder of black men accused of raping white women\*. > > \*not that you had to be accused of so much as raping a white woman. Whistling was more than enough. Not perzackly. What I object to is a “special class”, based on popular reaction. If enough people are outraged, then the laws go out the window, they no longer apply. We say that guilt or innocence must be determined in a court of law, by specific procedures. That isn’t always easy to do, especially when our sense of order and right is outraged. But if we don’t do it, we are not a nation of laws, but a nation of guidelines, to be applied when appropriate but discarded if we are angry enough. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/262 "2009-12-01T17:53:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not perzackly. What I object to is a “special class”, based on popular reaction. If enough people are outraged, then the laws go out the window, they no longer apply. We say that guilt or innocence must be determined in a court of law, by specific procedures. That isn’t always easy to do, especially when our sense of order and right is outraged. But if we don’t do it, we are not a nation of laws, but a nation of guidelines, to be applied when appropriate but discarded if we are angry enough. What do you mean “_ **if** _ we don’t do it”? Are you sure you live in the United States of America? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/263 "2009-12-01T18:01:11Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > **luci** , I like you. So please stop putting words or intentions into my posts that aren’t there. It does not become you. And I you, as well. But you rebut **Dio** s point without offering any other alternative, I think a reasonable person might fairly interpret that as a statement that the perp was _not_ psycho. I mean, if you wanted to say that he _was_ psycho, but **Dio** ’s evidence was thin, you most likely would not have bothered, as you don’t offer inconsequential quibbles. At least, not that I’ve ever noticed… Now, I know friend **Dio** can get a bit out of hand, now and again. Minnesotans are a tempestuous lot, given to wild displays of emotion, not calm and introspective like Texans. Still, I think his initial case stands, if a man does crazy, violent shit, its a good bet that he is crazy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/264 "2009-12-01T18:03:02Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > What do you mean “_ **if** _ we don’t do it”? Are you sure you live in the United States of America? :dubious: **Bo** , with all due respect: Huh? As Eugene V. Debs is my witness, I don’t get what you mean, here. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/265 "2009-12-01T18:11:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Well, you’re the one who came up with “child pornographers,” Yes, I did. And you said > [@](#): > > That is precisely how my question can be rephrased thereby accepting those words as if they were your own. > [@](#): > > but why couldn’t they be lying, murdering drug traffickers? I guess they could. But to me it’s still very unlikely, unless you can cite some statistic that shows that cops are so likely to be lying murdering drug traffickers that speculation of such is reasonable. I don’t think that cops are any more likely to be degenerate criminals than the population at large, and I seriously doubt that every time you read a story about someone being murdered you question whether he might have had it coming. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/266 "2009-12-01T18:17:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And I you, as well. But you rebut **Dio** s point without offering any other alternative, I think a reasonable person might fairly interpret that as a statement that the perp was _not_ psycho. I was pointing out **Dio’s** penchant for concluding things based more on his political worldview, than on actual evidence. Just as earlier in the thread he raised the spectre of police misconduct by the victims (Glenn Beck would have been proud), he went on to decide that the guy was not just mentally ill, but also not responsible for his actions. It was this leap of logic, made with scant evidence, and not the truth or falseness of his conclusion, that prompted my post. **Dio** is guided first and foremost by his political worldview, unlike gentlemen like us who engage in deliberate rumination before making conclusions. I was pointing that out. The guy may have been not guilty by reason of insanity, but to conclude that based on a couple sentences in a newspaper account, is sloppy thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/267 "2009-12-01T19:01:17Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > A wise man once said, not too long ago: “Kindly confine your remarks to things I actually say, if you don’t mind terribly.” Pretty good advice, isn’t it. > > I haven’t made a judgment about his mental state, his culpability, or his responsibility for his actions. That was Dio, who concluded, based on scant evidence, that he was indeed psychotic and not responsible for his actions. Mayhap you should bring that up with him. The authorities said he was psychotic. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/268 "2009-12-01T19:04:25Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I guess they could. But to me it’s still very unlikely, unless you can cite some statistic that shows that cops are so likely to be lying murdering drug traffickers that speculation of such is reasonable. I didn’t say it was likely, I said it was possible. Is there any reason to say it’s impossible? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/269 "2009-12-01T19:13:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t say it was likely, I said it was possible. Is there any reason to say it’s impossible? Of course not. Who said it was? It is, however, for more likely that they are not degenerate criminals than that they are. Just like the with general population. Is it your habit to comment that every murder victim you read about possibly had it coming? Surely the answer is no. Then why comment that the cops possibly had it coming? It’s just a ridiculous, extreme, insulting position to take. Especially considering the fact that many more police die in the line of duty, protecting the public, than do so deservedly at the hands of vigilantes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/270 "2009-12-01T19:16:32Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Of course not. Who said it was? > > It is, however, for more likely that they are not degenerate criminals than that they are. Just like the with general population. So what? Unlikely is not the same as impossible. And it’s not _that_ unlikely. > [@](#): > > Is it your habit to comment that every murder victim you read about possibly had it coming? I only wondered in this case because the non-random targeting of cops for assassination is so unusual. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/271 "2009-12-01T19:19:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I only wondered in this case because the non-random targeting of cops for assassination is so unusual. I also wonder how one can explain the shooter’s motivation. A raving lunatic lashing out at the world doesn’t pick four specific targets–they gun down the whole restaurant. But it’s all speculation. Speculation is cheap. We’ll never really know. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/272 "2009-12-01T19:25:30Z")
I don’t have a problem with the guy being taken out, by the way, even though I suspect he probably could have been taken alive. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/273 "2009-12-01T19:43:27Z")
I do agree that there is a “special class” of criminal who should be executed–those who commit multiple murders or commit murder more than once. I also agree that people who commit certain violent crimes more than once should be locked up with no hope of parole–serial rapists and child molesters. There simply are people who are a danger to society and should not be allowed in it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/274 "2009-12-01T19:47:13Z")
As long as you have a method to insure 100% certainty both that the right person is being executed, and that the person got a fair trial. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/275 "2009-12-01T19:47:23Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I do agree that there is a “special class” of criminal who should be executed–those who commit multiple murders or commit murder more than once. > > I also agree that people who commit certain violent crimes more than once should be locked up with no hope of parole–serial rapists and child molesters. > > There simply are people who are a danger to society and should not be allowed in it. So, it follows that you, yourself would be willing to pull the switch or press the button that does the deed? Or are you content to condemn people from the comfort of your easy chair? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/276 "2009-12-01T19:52:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So what? Unlikely is not the same as impossible. And it’s not _that_ unlikely. Well, now we’re into some squishy terminology. How unlikely is \*that \*unlikely? I’ve lived in a Southern city that has grown from about 150,00 people to 300,000 people for over fifty years. To my knowledge, no member of the police force has been a lying scumbag murdering drug dealer. Sure, there have been corrupt cops. But none who deserved being gunned down by a vigilante. I also do a fair bit of reading of national news. I don’t recall seeing stories about any cops who were lying scumbag murdering drug dealers. Especially _four_ of them all sitting together in a restaurant. Of course I may have missed them, but it seems to me that CNN, MSNBC, NPR\* et al\* would have had headlines to that effect if there were such stories. So in my experience, I would say it\*\* is\*\* \*that \*unlikely. Feel free to share any counter examples you may be aware of. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/277 "2009-12-01T19:58:39Z")
Google “New Orleans police corruption”. Take a lunch, you’re gonna be there for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/278 "2009-12-01T19:59:10Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Well, now we’re into some squishy terminology. How unlikely is \*that \*unlikely? Irrelevant, since I did not say it was likely, but crooked cops aren’t exactly unicorns. As long as the possibility cannot be ruled out, then it cannot be ruled out. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/279 "2009-12-01T20:07:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Irrelevant, since I did not say it was likely, but crooked cops aren’t exactly unicorns. As long as the possibility cannot be ruled out, then it cannot be ruled out. Damn son! **We are not talking about crooked cops, unless it is your contention that crooked cops deserve being gunned down by a vigilante.** You’re better than this, **Dio** , you really are. If this were a GD debate about the Bible you wouldn’t let shit like this pass for a micro second. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/280 "2009-12-01T20:15:49Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > However had the accused made it across to Canada, the system generally says we dont extradite folks who are facing the death penalty, um, in reality Canadian cops are no different from their American cousins. > > I expect that he would be terminated with extreme predudice at first oppurtunity. Well, assuming he’d been taken alive by Canadian law enforcement, I figure we’d see something akin to the Charles Ng case, only resolved much faster - hemming and hawing on the part of Canadian officials, but the extradition goes through because, frankly, we don’t want this clown in our country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369.md?page=15)