# Four Seattle police officers ambushed and shot dead **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 29, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369 "2009-11-29T19:53:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/281 "2009-12-01T20:19:39Z")
Idle speculation: if you were a low-life drug dealer who wanted to off one or several low-life crooked cops, what better way than to set up a psycho to take the fall? Nobody, but nobody, is going to pursue this, nobody is going to second-guess it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/282 "2009-12-01T20:21:09Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Damn son! \*\*We are not talking about crooked cops How do you know? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/283 "2009-12-01T20:22:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Idle speculation: if you were a low-life drug dealer who wanted to off one or several low-life crooked cops, what better way than to set up a psycho to take the fall? Nobody, but nobody, is going to pursue this, nobody is going to second-guess it. Yeah. Psychos being notoriously reliable and all. How would this set up work, exactly? How would you motivate a psycho to commit mass murder, and how would you assure that it took place? This is a serious question, by the way. What would be your plan? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/284 "2009-12-01T20:29:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How do you know? Jesus Fucking Christ! Because _we_, as in \*you \*and _I_, are framing the conversation. And I have stated several times that what I am talking about is cops who are such degenerate criminals as to be deserving of being gunned down by a vigilante. You know, lying scumbag murdering drug dealers. Does that phrase ring a bell? And whether or not such cops are _that likely_ (your phrase) to exist. Now you can equivocate all you want, but unless your “had it coming” comment referred to garden variety crooked cops, you are simply weaseling out of directly responding to my argument. And if it did refer to garden variety crooked cops, then I simply don’t know what to say. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/285 "2009-12-01T20:52:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Idle speculation: if you were a low-life drug dealer who wanted to off one or several low-life crooked cops, what better way than to set up a psycho to take the fall? He was, to use a technical term, bat shit crazy. I wouldn’t think his behavior could be determined; he’d just as soon fly upstairs and talk to Jesus about it as shoot the guys I wanted him to. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/286 "2009-12-01T21:23:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How do you know? For Fuck’s sake, go and join FOX news, where this kind of “speculation” is par for the course. “questions are being asked” “how do we know Obama was born in Hawaii?” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/287 "2009-12-01T21:23:37Z")
[The Seattle Times](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010392838_shootingeval01m.html): > [@](#): > > [W]hen psychologists evaluated [Maurice Clemmons] in October to determine if he was competent to stand trial, they saw no evidence that he wasn’t, according to the evaluation obtained by The News Tribune. > > Clemmons answered the evaluators’ questions calmly and rationally, with “no evidence of disturbance.” > > :snip: > > In the end, evaluators couldn’t come up with a diagnosis for Clemmons, other than stress. However, they did say his violence at an early age, including robbery convictions, suggested he had an “increased risk for future dangerous behavior.” ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/288 "2009-12-02T00:01:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How do you know? Why don’t you ask their colleagues, their families, the people in the neighborhood they helped every day? Read at least some of the links to the stories about what happened. Clemmons told several people the day before that he was going to get on TV by killing some cops. He had a friend drop him off outside the coffee shop where lots of police start their day, not just these four. It could have just as easily been 5 or 3 or 6 for several different jurisdictions. Afterward, he told those same people to watch.. he’d done what he said. Four others have been arrested for aiding and abetting. The driver of the truck may be also be charged with murder as well. Why are you being so very obtuse, unless you are just stirring the pot? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/289 "2009-12-02T00:18:09Z")
Hey, all I knew was the cops said it wasn’t random. Nothing learned since thn is valid. The information I had at the time is sufficient to raise the reasonable question about whether they might have had criminal involvement. We still don’t really know that they didn’t, since we still don’t actually know for a fact who the shooter was or what the motive was. ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/290 "2009-12-02T00:33:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Hey, all I knew was the cops said it wasn’t random. Nothing learned since thn is valid. The information I had at the time is sufficient to raise the reasonable question about whether they might have had criminal involvement. We still don’t really know that they didn’t, since we still don’t actually know for a fact who the shooter was or what the motive was. The shooter was Clemmons. He had a bullet in his abdomen from the killed officer’s gun, he was carrying a gun taken from the murder scene. It wasn’t random in that he targeted police in a place that police congregate. He told others he wanted to kill cops, not those individual cops, any cops. Why would that be the only valid statement when everything I’ve said came straight from the news releases from the WSP spokesperson. [Here](http://www.king5.com/) is a link to King 5 news, where you can find all of these stories. Or must I link to EVERY story to convince you? [Here’s](http://blog.thenewstribune.com/crime/2009/12/01/prosecutor-starts-press-conference/) a different source. > [@](#): > > Clemmons said the night before the shooting that he was going to kill a group of cops. > > “He was mad about being in jail and didn’t like police officers.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/291 "2009-12-02T00:36:54Z")
I know the cops killed a guy who they think was the shooter. That’s still not absolute proof, though. It was probably him, but it’s not like they proved it in court. It’s also irrelevant, since my speculation was made when the only information we were being given was that the shootings were not random. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/292 "2009-12-02T01:23:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I know the cops killed a guy who they think was the shooter. That’s still not absolute proof, though. It was probably him, but it’s not like they proved it in court. > > It’s also irrelevant, since my speculation was made when the only information we were being given was that the shootings were not random. Please consider submitting your body to science. The medical community was not previously aware that it was possible to sustain life functions with so few brain cells still functioning. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/293 "2009-12-02T01:36:00Z")
Ya… OK… And how do we know the shootings actually happened in the first place? I know I didn’t witness them personally… Maybe the media just made the whole thing up in order to gain sympathy for the police. It could have happened that way, right? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/294 "2009-12-02T01:41:02Z")
So we’re to judge DtC’s remarks from 2 days ago on the basis of articles published on Dec 1? That’s a pretty high bar: you guys are going to have to share with me your time travel secrets. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/295 "2009-12-02T01:53:25Z")
From T=0: > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > They’ll get the death penalty, all right - after forty years of appeals processes, paperwork, lawyers, etc - plenty of time for them to write manifestos or convert to Islam or host radio shows and attract a horde of radical admirers agitating for their release… > > Anti-cop sentiment is strong among college-age, liberal leaning people… > > It was hyperbole. I don’t think Mike Huckabee should blow his brains out. I think he should take an overdose of Tylenol. Well, as it turns out the perp wasn’t shot after 40 years of appears, nor was he a college aged liberal leaning kinda guy. Set aside the call for the death of an elected official (jeez, why are the winger-wackos always so pumped for jihad?). Compared to that spittle, DtC’s offhand rebuttal was a salute to reason. ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/296 "2009-12-02T01:59:02Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > So we’re to judge DtC’s remarks from 2 days ago on the basis of articles published on Dec 1? That’s a pretty high bar: you guys are going to have to share with me your time travel secrets. See his post #282 from 12:21pm. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/297 "2009-12-02T02:01:24Z")
> [@picunurse](#): > > See his post #282 from 12:21pm. Well, we still don’t actually know they weren’t crooked. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/298 "2009-12-02T02:09:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I know the cops killed a guy who they think was the shooter. That’s still not absolute proof, though. It was probably him, but it’s not like they proved it in court. > > It’s also irrelevant, since my speculation was made when the only information we were being given was that the shootings were not random. Would you please give it the fuck up? You’re working really hard to come off as a schmuck. And you really have no reason to work that hard.😉 Seriously, Dio, give this nonsense up. The guy had a damn bullet from the scene in him. Do you really think someone shot him and then exchanged one bullet for another? Come on, man. One hose of the hooka at a time. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/299 "2009-12-02T02:11:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Well, we still don’t actually know they weren’t crooked. We don’t know they were crooked either. At this point I think they were just unlucky, and happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Stop trying to pin the blame on the victims. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/300 "2009-12-02T02:12:21Z")
I said it was probably him. It was almost certainly him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369.md?page=16)