# Four Seattle police officers ambushed and shot dead **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 29, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369 "2009-11-29T19:53:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/401 "2009-12-03T14:54:15Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > What, **Diogenes** , no suggestion that Clemmons might have had it coming to him? Or is that a line you reserve for gunned down cops? If he wasn’t psychotic, he might have had it coming. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/402 "2009-12-03T15:18:30Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > Still better than what you’ve got. CITE!?!?!?!!??!!?!???// zomg ---
**Author:** ![Bambro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df705f/32.png) [@Bambro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambro)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/403 "2009-12-03T15:24:14Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Your posts have been shitty and annoying for the past couple of pages. His posts have been shitty and annoying for the past couple of months. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/404 "2009-12-03T21:47:21Z")
Then he takes hind tit to DtC whose posts have been shitty and annoying for years. His continued presence here cannot be explained as other than pet troll. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/405 "2009-12-03T21:51:29Z")
**Diogenes the Cynic** at least actually expresses himself in sentences (plural) and paragraphs (also plural.) He is certainly iconoclastic, but I am also certain he doesn’t just do it to rile people up. I am convinced he really believes what he writes. He is no troll, and unlike **Michael Ellis** , Diogenes does not pester people with childish and pointless demands for “Cite?” without even once providing the slightest actual rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![Bambro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df705f/32.png) [@Bambro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambro)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/406 "2009-12-03T22:19:50Z")
5 years ago DtC was at the top of my “Holy fuck that guy pisses me off” list. Now, I kinda like the guy. I don’t by any means think he is a troll. Michael Ellis seems to ONLY say something if he can make it just as 100% assholish as possible. His only reason for being here is to dump on other posters and I have not seen one single redeeming quality in any of his posts that I have read. I’d say he is much more of a troll than Dio. All Michael does is see just how many people he can piss off as often as possible. He strikes me as a very angry and very sad person. But whatever, its just a message board. Just as easy to ignore him with the handy new firefox plugin mentioned in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/407 "2009-12-04T02:22:38Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Then he takes hind tit to DtC whose posts have been shitty and annoying for years. His continued presence here cannot be explained as other than pet troll. Disagree. Those who accuse him of trollery are simply upset when he rains on their parade IMHO. (Though parade-raining may at times be inappropriate in MPSIMS.) This thread is a decent example of that. Many find outrage directed towards maniacs to be highly empowering: they don’t like to be reminded of petty obstacles like the US Constitution. Furthermore, DtC has a decent background in early Christian history, so he does actually fight ignorance here. ## Thanks to all for the background on Michael Ellis. All that said, what the hell does “Have it coming” mean? If it means “Deserves it”, I demur on practical grounds: extrajudicial killing is to be condemned as it generally is associated with tyranny or insufficient rule of law. If it means “Violent death is a hazard of those who engage in certain immoral activities”, then I agree. Oh, and what **Stealth Potato** said. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/408 "2009-12-04T02:31:36Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Disagree. Those who accuse him of trollery are simply upset when he rains on their parade IMHO. (Though parade-raining may at times be inappropriate in MPSIMS.) This thread is a decent example of that. This thread is a decent example of how Dio operates on this board. Following in Glenn Beck’s footsteps, he muses aloud about whether these police officers were dirty and/or that they deserved it, and then, based on one sentence in a newspaper, makes a complete psychological diagnosis and excuses the murderer’s behavior. That is classic Dio, taking a position based not on evidence, but rather based on what fits his politicial world view. Then, he defends those views, not with actual evidence, but by sheer amount of posts, by building strawmen, and by diverting attention. He’s not a troll, I agree. He really is this blatantly stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/409 "2009-12-04T03:34:03Z")
DtC implied that the murder’s behavior was excusable (not in those words) if he was psychotic. DtC said that if Clemmons believed he was Jesus, then he was psychotic. DtC noted a report that said Clemmons believed he was Jesus. I find none of this to be a particularly exceptional or ungrounded position. Was there some evidence that Clemmons thought he was Jesus? Check out the NY Daily News: > [@NY Daily News](#): > > Seattle cop killer Maurice Clemmons - shot dead Tuesday by a lone patrolman - drove to New York in June to see a Manhattan minister, declaring God told him to make the trip. > > He disturbed a June 13 prayer service, trying to rush the stage and yelling, and then approached Bishop Bernard Jordan at his gala 50th birthday banquet the next day. > > “He said he was Jesus. I was kind of shocked,” Jordan told the Daily News. > > “We said, ‘If you keep talking like that, you will be locked up and put away.’ I’m not a professional in mental health, but you can always tell when someone’s nuts.” > > Read more: [http://www.nydailynews.com/ny\_local/2009/12/01/2009-12-01\_i\_am\_jesus\_seattle\_cop\_killer\_maurice\_clemmons\_told\_ny\_bishop\_.html#ixzz0YgfjnjND](http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/12/01/2009-12-01_i_am_jesus_seattle_cop_killer_maurice_clemmons_told_ny_bishop_.html#ixzz0YgfjnjND) I disagree with Hamlet’s characterization. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/410 "2009-12-04T03:43:03Z")
Anyone who genuinely thinks he’s Jesus is psychotic by strict definition. That’s not something that requires a medical degree to know. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/411 "2009-12-04T11:27:53Z")
Nor does one need to be a proctologist to recognize that you are an asshole. Still, to give you credit when due, you haven’t threatened physical violence in this thread, yet. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/412 "2009-12-04T11:36:14Z")
Maybe he’ll suggest one of us has it coming. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/413 "2009-12-04T14:09:00Z")
So the cops had it coming because they might maybe possibly have been dirty and didn’t deserve due process, but the alledged gunman, who was out on bail for raping a 12 year old child, was denied his due process? Man, they is fucked up. I caught Huckebee on The View yesterday. He was very candid about commuting Clemmons’s sentence, saying the 100+ years was unfair. He didn’t grant him clemency, but had him serve his sentence and then he was paroled. Mike blames the judge who released him on bail. I agree with that call–WTF was that judge thinking? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/414 "2009-12-04T14:20:51Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > So the cops had it coming because they might maybe possibly have been dirty and didn’t deserve due process, but the alledged gunman, who was out on bail for raping a 12 year old child, was denied his due process? Man, they is fucked up. > > I caught Huckebee on The View yesterday. He was very candid about commuting Clemmons’s sentence, saying the 100+ years was unfair. He didn’t grant him clemency, but had him serve his sentence and then he was paroled. Mike blames the judge who released him on bail. I agree with that call–WTF was that judge thinking? “If I don’t let this guy out on bail I’ll have to make room by releasing some guy caught smoking pot. And I have a re-election coming up next year…” -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/415 "2009-12-04T14:43:24Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > DtC implied that the murder’s behavior was excusable (not in those words) if he was psychotic. DtC said that if Clemmons believed he was Jesus, then he was psychotic. DtC noted a report that said Clemmons believed he was Jesus. > > I find none of this to be a particularly exceptional or ungrounded position. > > Was there some evidence that Clemmons thought he was Jesus? Any evidence since July, when he turned himself in for second-degree rape of a child? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/416 "2009-12-04T14:52:28Z")
Millions of people think Jesus talks directly to them every day. I live in constant fear of being “excusably” murdered. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/417 "2009-12-04T15:03:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Anyone who genuinely thinks he’s Jesus is psychotic by strict definition. That’s not something that requires a medical degree to know. Any evidence that the psychologists charged with evaluating him in October dropped the ball? Or, for that matter, “[it’s all but impossible to get court psychologists to say anything else, no matter how crazy somebody is](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11840486&postcount=343)”? After Judge van Doorninck deemed Clemmons to be competent for trial, she ordered a second evaluation to determine if he was sane at the time of the alleged rape and assault. This was on the advice from the same psychologists who determined him to be suffering from stress. Judge van Doorninck also wasn’t the first judge to order a psychological evaluation; there were two others, one in August and one in September. How about this? Clemmons knew the rape and assault charges would likely have resulted in his third strike and life imprisonment, so he cooked up an insanity defense and, when that didn’t work, ensured a suicide-by-cop. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/418 "2009-12-04T16:10:06Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > So the cops had it coming because they might maybe possibly have been dirty and didn’t deserve due process, but the alledged gunman, who was out on bail for raping a 12 year old child, was denied his due process? Man, they is fucked up. > > I caught Huckebee on The View yesterday. He was very candid about commuting Clemmons’s sentence, saying the 100+ years was unfair. He didn’t grant him clemency, but had him serve his sentence and then he was paroled. Mike blames the judge who released him on bail. I agree with that call–WTF was that judge thinking? Now Huckabee can “explain” to four families, how “fair” it is that the asshat was out and has killed people. Added on edit: I don’t buy Huckabee’s attempt to blame someone else on this. That’s a “standard” procedrue when it all goes to shit. I see it all the time. It’s the rule, not the exception. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/419 "2009-12-04T19:25:13Z")
This whole situation sounds like an L&O/L&O SVU crossover arc for sweeps. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/420 "2009-12-04T19:40:55Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > This whole situation sounds like an L&O/L&O SVU crossover arc for sweeps. Only if the inmate was providing sexual favors to the Huckinator. -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369.md?page=22)