# Four Seattle police officers ambushed and shot dead **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 29, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369 "2009-11-29T19:53:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/41 "2009-11-30T03:32:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > And how do you know these cops didn’t have it coming? _Maybe_ these cops who were murdered were corrupt, and involved in some kind of organized crime thing where they were in bed with the criminals. Otherwise I can’t possibly envision a scenario where they “had it coming.” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/42 "2009-11-30T03:32:54Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Also I will not vote for Huckabee ever unless I have to vote for him or a Democrat. Hey, you can always not vote. Let’s not go overboard here. The man is a really bad person. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/43 "2009-11-30T03:33:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > And how do you know these cops didn’t have it coming? This shit is about to get a whole lot crazier… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/44 "2009-11-30T03:34:09Z")
Willie Horten-ing Mike Huckabee over this is ridiculous, by the way. He has no responsibility whatsoever. None. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/45 "2009-11-30T03:35:49Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > _Maybe_ these cops who were murdered were corrupt, and involved in some kind of organized crime thing where they were in bed with the criminals. Otherwise I can’t possibly envision a scenario where they “had it coming.” That’s exactly what I was suggesting. They were apparently specifically targeted. They weren’t killed in a shootout or anything. It makes me wonder. Or maybe I’ve just read too many James Elroy novels. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/46 "2009-11-30T03:41:58Z")
You know, I hadn’t even thought about it until now, and I was feeling pretty emotional with outrage over this murder, but that is actually a completely valid and rational point. There is plenty of precedence for police being directly involved in criminal activity - I am by no means a hero worshipper of law officers - and if that was indeed the case here, I think that would make it a very different situation from four innocent cops being randomly executed. Could this killer have been a triggerman for someone else? ETA: I still think, however, that something is quite wrong with our justice system when a five-time violent felon manages to get free of the law and do something like this. The fact that this guy committed his crimes at 17 doesn’t really mean anything; someone who’s 17 is not a child, as far as I’m concerned. Someone should have seen this coming. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/47 "2009-11-30T03:48:21Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > ETA: I still think, however, that something is quite wrong with our justice system when a five-time violent felon manages to get free of the law and do something like this. The fact that this guy committed his crimes at 17 doesn’t really mean anything; someone who’s 17 is not a child, as far as I’m concerned. Someone should have seen this coming. I’m still looking for the news story that you must have secret access to, wherein the killer has been identified. All I have access to are stories where the police call him a person of interest. Now, I think you’re probably correct–hard to believe this isn’t the scumbag. But, probably putting down your pitchfork and torch is a wise move until such time as the killer has been identified. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/48 "2009-11-30T03:48:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s exactly what I was suggesting. They were apparently specifically targeted. Not necessarily. Just a few weeks ago, a Seattle cop was murdered by some guy who apparently decided that he just really really didn’t like cops. Shortly prior to that, the guy had torched several police cars after first planting pipe bombs in an attempt to kill responders. So some folks just have a chip on their shoulder regarding the police and decide to do something spectacular about it. ETA: [Link](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010226607_suspect08m.html) to one of the stories on the case. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/49 "2009-11-30T03:48:37Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Someone should have seen this coming. > [@](#): > > “This is the day I’ve been dreading for a long time,” Larry Jegley, prosecuting attorney for Arkansas’ Pulaski County said Sunday night when informed that Clemmons was being sought in connection to the killings. Somebody did. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/50 "2009-11-30T03:49:08Z")
The reason violent felons get freed (and I agree they should not) is because they have to make room for all the mandatorily sentenced drug offenders. Get rid of the idiotic drug sentences, and the system wouldn’t have to keep cutting loose the violent thugs and rapists. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/51 "2009-11-30T03:50:40Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You would not believe how many people hate cops just because they’re cops. They don’t even view them as human beings with families and lives, just as some kind of mindless robot who carries out The Law of The System. Anti-cop sentiment is strong among college-age, liberal leaning people, and is tied particularly tightly with radical politics. These people are quick to defend anyone who takes the life of a law officer. Oh, that’s interesting. My entire peer group is composed of college-age, liberal leaning people, and none of them hate cops or would defend such a crime. If they did, I wouldn’t consider them my peers. I understand this incident hits a nerve with you, but I would appreciate it if you would refrain from making offensive generalizations about… well, people like me. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/52 "2009-11-30T03:51:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The reason violent felons get freed (and I agree they should not) is because they have to make room for all the mandatorily sentenced drug offenders. Get rid of the idiotic drug sentences, and the system wouldn’t have to keep cutting loose the violent thugs and rapists. On that, I am completely in agreement and always have been. I read that our penal system is operating at something like 30% over capacity. I’ve read news stories about prisons so crowded that they actually had to move beds into the dining area and have prisoners sleep there. And it is most definitely the drug policy which is clogging up the works. As to the post above - I wasn’t saying that everyone or even a majority of that demographic is extremely anti-law-enforcement, just that _some_ are. I don’t think it’s really malicious, actually. I think it’s just because most of their experiences with police have been bad ones. Why? Because, again, of our drug policies. Young people fear and dehumanize police officers because they only know the cops as the people who are out to bust them for smoking a joint. When the police stop being the symbol of an insane and unfair drug policy, this anti-cop sentiment will disappear. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/53 "2009-11-30T03:56:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The reason violent felons get freed (and I agree they should not) is because they have to make room for all the mandatorily sentenced drug offenders. I think in this case it’s because Mike Huckabee, a Baptist Preacher, talks to God. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Booker57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Booker57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Booker57)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/54 "2009-11-30T04:17:59Z")
It is not that Mike talks to G-d, it’s that he thinks G-d talks to him. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/55 "2009-11-30T04:19:19Z")
There’s no way this thread can avoid some discussion of policy. It’s inevitable. I can’t do anything to help the four victims. I am interested in cutting down the number of crimes committed like this in the future. As to whether the cops had it coming, well, fuck that noise. In every big city in America, there are gang bangers and petty criminals who want to kill cops because they’re cops. [http://www.odmp.org/officer/17288-officer-thomas-joel-steiner](http://www.odmp.org/officer/17288-officer-thomas-joel-steiner) > [@](#): > > It was later discovered that the suspect shot Officer Steiner in an attempt to gain the respect of members of a Los Angeles gang he was attempting to join. Fifty seven members of that gang were arrested after a year long investigation and charged with conspiracy in relation to the murder of Officer Steiner. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/56 "2009-11-30T04:41:07Z")
Has it actually been confirmed yet that the suspect and the guy Huckabee pardoned are one and the same? I’ve seen a couple of articles that note the name os the same, but not confirming they are infact the same person. If so, I do believe this kills whatever chance Huckabee has for the Republican presidential nomination. He has made one of the unpardonable mistakes for conservatives – he showed mercy. He will be villified as a bleeding-heart conservative. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/57 "2009-11-30T04:56:14Z")
Clearly a lot of people have strong opinions and feelings about this. I’m moving the thread from MPSIMS to Great Debates. twickster, MPSIMS moderator ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/58 "2009-11-30T05:00:27Z")
I absolutely agree on the drug war using up prison cells and other resources that should go to keeping violent felons in jail. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/59 "2009-11-30T05:25:49Z")
Not seeing a serious debate, here. Off to the BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/60 "2009-11-30T05:39:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Not seeing a serious debate, here. > > Off to the BBQ Pit. So, I guess that means that I can now say that **Diogenes the Cynic** is a worthless piece of shit [post=“11830612”]who continues to troll[/post] unabated by any moderator control or censure, non? Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369.md?page=4)