# Four Seattle police officers ambushed and shot dead **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 29, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369 "2009-11-29T19:53:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/141 "2009-11-30T19:27:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Of course. Bear in mind, that I’m talking _morally_, not _legally_, but yes, of course there are people who morally deserve summary execution. Well, that only answers part the question. Equally important is determining who should be the executioner. Anyone with a weapon? Also, what standard of proof do these vigilantes need? Personal knowledge? Reliable witnesses? Even from a moral standpoint, it seems a bit sticky. Isn’t it the more moral thing to do to rely on an impartial justice system, flawed as it is, instead of just letting people make these decisions on their own? > [@](#): > > Well, murderers and child pornographers, anyway. Also, how about 911 hijackers, rapists and serial killers? How about that guy who kept his daughter as a sex slave down in his basement for all those years, or the one who kidnapped that little girl and kept her in his backyard? Legally, they deserve a trial. Morally, they deserve literal crucifixion. Even granting that, it doesn’t explain why their punishment should be left up to anyone who feels like carrying it out. > [@](#): > > That is precisely how my question can be rephrased. Well then, wouldn’t a reasonable response be “Because they so seldom are?” Alternately, how do you know the victims at Columbine didn’t have it coming? Or the Virginia Tech massacre? The people at Fort Hood? They might have deserved it as well. Hell, for that matter, the rape victims might have had it coming. Or the 911 victims. As a matter of fact, I’ll bet that we both know of people who would mount a moral argument that they in fact \*did \*have it coming. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/142 "2009-11-30T20:35:27Z")
When a spokesperson says ‘non-random’, a reasonable person would conclude that the shooting was non-random because the person was specifically out to shoot cops, as opposed to people who may or may not be cops. A non-reasonable person would conclude that out of the population of cops, these four were not randomly selected and so there is reason to believe that they were dirty. Do such people believe that cops are fair targets, and the only way for their assasinations to be ‘non-random’ is if they’re dirty? ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/143 "2009-11-30T20:50:15Z")
Here are two local stories, and one national story. I can’t find the video of the WSP detective telling about how they know who did it. [1](http://blog.thenewstribune.com/crime/2009/11/30/sightings-of-clemmons-continue/) [2](http://www.king5.com/news/local/Suspect-in-Lakewood-police-slayings-wounded-possibly-dead-78130572.html) [3](http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091129/US.Officers.Shot/) ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/144 "2009-11-30T21:03:18Z")
> [@picunurse](#): > > The victims were all local LEOs from a small community named Lakewood. Lakewood has only had their own PD for a few years. It has a reputation for being a crime-ridden, violent area. It’s only been a town for a few years. When I was growing up, it was an unincorporated part of Pierce County, with law enforcement done by the county sheriff’s office. Crime-ridden and violent, I never had that impression where I lived. Is that new, or was I just not paying attention? ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/145 "2009-11-30T21:14:54Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > It’s only been a town for a few years. When I was growing up, it was an unincorporated part of Pierce County, with law enforcement done by the county sheriff’s office. > > Crime-ridden and violent, I never had that impression where I lived. Is that new, or was I just not paying attention? It was something a bystander said. I shouldn’t have added that, since I have no cite to support the idea. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/146 "2009-11-30T21:27:36Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > A non-reasonable person would conclude that out of the population of cops, these four were not randomly selected and so there is reason to believe that they were dirty. There’s no reason to believe any particular motive for the shootings. It could be anything from being pissed off about being arrested by one of the victims or it could be as nefarious as one of the cops being dirty. So yeah, anyone reaching any particular conclusion isn’t being reasonable. > [@](#): > > Do such people believe that cops are fair targets, and the only way for their assasinations to be ‘non-random’ is if they’re dirty? I’d hope not, because that would be the result of a case of terminal stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/147 "2009-11-30T21:38:15Z")
> [@picunurse](#): > > It was something a bystander said. I shouldn’t have added that, since I have no cite to support the idea. Sorry. No, it may be true. It’s hard to look with unbiased eyes at the place where I grew up. I do remember one of the early seasons of _Cops_ was filmed around there, and I saw places I recognized. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/148 "2009-11-30T21:45:54Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > When a spokesperson says ‘non-random’, a reasonable person would conclude that the shooting was non-random because the person was specifically out to shoot cops, as opposed to people who may or may not be cops. No, a reasonable person would conclude that they were specifically targeted as individuals. Targeting them simply because they’re cops would still be random. > [@](#): > > Do such people believe that cops are fair targets, and the only way for their assasinations to be ‘non-random’ is if they’re dirty? No, “such people” believe that criminal involvement is one _possibility_. It’s not unreasonable to ask the question. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/149 "2009-11-30T21:47:02Z")
No, it wouldn’t. That they are cops removes the randomness. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/150 "2009-11-30T21:48:25Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > No, it wouldn’t. That they are cops removes the randomness. Yeah. If a guy goes out with the intention of killing cops, and then actually kills cops, then that’s pretty non-random. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/151 "2009-11-30T21:51:47Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Well, that only answers part the question. Equally important is determining who should be the executioner. Nobody. There shouldn’t be an executioner. We have no reasonable choice but to operate within a system that sometimes does not allow us to give some people what they morally deserve. > [@](#): > > Even granting that, it doesn’t explain why their punishment should be left up to anyone who feels like carrying it out. I never said that it should be. > [@](#): > > Well then, wouldn’t a reasonable response be “Because they so seldom are?” Crooked cops are not rare. Targeted assassinations of specific cops is. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/152 "2009-11-30T21:53:11Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > No, it wouldn’t. That they are cops removes the randomness. No it doesn’t. It just mean someone was targeting random cops. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/153 "2009-11-30T21:54:51Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Yeah. If a guy goes out with the intention of killing cops, and then actually kills cops, then that’s pretty non-random. Not if the cops are randomly selected. To me, “non-random” means specifically targeted individuals. Maybe law enforcment should have chosen better words. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/154 "2009-11-30T21:56:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Crooked cops are not rare. Targeted assassinations of specific cops is. We left crooked a ways back. We’re at lying murdering scumbag child pornographers now, per your very own self. And I submit that cops rarely are lying murdering scumbag child pornographers, and there is no particular reason to speculate that they might be. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/155 "2009-11-30T22:02:48Z")
DNFTGDMFT. Fuck, people. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/156 "2009-11-30T22:04:04Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > We left crooked a ways back. We’re at lying murdering scumbag child pornographers now, per your very own self. And I submit that cops rarely are lying murdering scumbag child pornographers, and there is no particular reason to speculate that they might be. Well, you’re the one who came up with “child pornographers,” but why couldn’t they be lying, murdering drug traffickers? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/157 "2009-11-30T22:05:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, “such people” believe that criminal involvement is one _possibility_. It’s not unreasonable to ask the question. However, there are people who disregard common sense and jump to Conspiracy Theory. They might believe that cops are generally corrupt, and think that killing cops isn’t random because the ‘deserve it’. If someone were to make such claims, on a message board, say, isn’t it reasonable to conclude that they hold such views? It’s not unreasonable to ask the question. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/158 "2009-11-30T22:06:39Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > However, there are people who disregard common sense and jump to Conspiracy Theory. They might believe that cops are generally corrupt, and think that killing cops isn’t random because the ‘deserve it’. > > If someone were to make such claims, on a message board, say, isn’t it reasonable to conclude that they hold such views? > > It’s not unreasonable to ask the question. No one has made such a claim on this message board that I’m aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/159 "2009-11-30T22:11:40Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > DNFTGDMFT. > > Fuck, people. > > -Joe Yeah, I have to agree. There was a time I thought DtC was just a huge, raging asshole sometimes and not really someone trolling around on these boards. I’m starting to think otherwise. It’s getting harder and harder not to think it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369/160 "2009-11-30T22:24:34Z")
I’ve never trolled in my life. This is me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/four-seattle-police-officers-ambushed-and-shot-dead/519369.md?page=9)