# Fourth Amendment questions (Liberty Safe controversy) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 15, 2023, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594 "2023-10-15T12:31:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/41 "2023-10-16T02:47:24Z")
Yeah, I mean, what this tells me is that if I need such a safe, I’m going to try and find me a plain old dumb gears-and-levers one. Because where there are backdoors, it’s when, not if, someone will figure how to crack them. I believe the safe owner is perfectly aware that if the LEOs _really_ want to they will get into the safe one way or another. But frankly, I can’t blame someone either for saying, hey, I ain’t giving you nothing but my lawyer’s number. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/42 "2023-10-16T03:02:46Z")
I wonder who made the decision at Liberty Safes for this. Note: Not a reply to Little Nemo. I hit the wrong reply button. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/43 "2023-10-16T11:44:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The only effect of Liberty cooperating with the police was to save their customer some money. What’s to object to, in a company saving their customer’s money? The customer had it in their own power to provide the safe combo to the cops and thus prevent them from destroying it. I’ve purchased a lot of things in my life, and other than the decision to manufacture something and set a suggested retail price, I don’t want those companies deciding anything else for me. Thing acquired, transaction complete, no further interference in my life is required. Heck, the owner here might not even be a customer. He could have bought it used and therefore have _no_ interaction with the manufacturer. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/44 "2023-10-16T12:02:30Z")
Moderating: > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > I asked you questions about something you said in this thread. > > Quote me where I said it is OK to lie to police. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > > > I asked you questions about something you said in this thread. > > > > Quote me where I said it is OK to lie to police. > > Why are you doing this to yourself? > > Anybody who wants to know what you wrote and what I wrote can read it. This particular topic has been beaten to death. Everyone drop the topic of @Saint_Cad 's opinion, or lack thereof, about talking to the police. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/45 "2023-10-16T12:03:26Z")
To think of it another way, there is no such thing as a magic box where you can hide your drugs, illegal cash, and other contraband from the police if they have a legal warrant to search your home. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/46 "2023-10-16T12:16:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It seems to me that Liberty Safe should have designed their safes so they don’t have an access code. I imagine their customers like the fact that if they forget the combination, they don’t have to throw away their expensive safe. That said, they should have told the cops to F-off, their customers are not interested in being narced on. I also think that combinations aren’t testifying against yourself anymore than giving the cops a key is testifying against yourself. Of course, for a physical safe, I’d be fine if the cops absolutely wrecked the shit out of it to get it open if the owner refused to help. Built into the wall? Hoo boy, it’s going to be a fun day, let’s get the sledgehammers out! ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/47 "2023-10-16T12:30:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It seems to me that Liberty Safe should have designed their safes so they don’t have an access code. That way they could honestly tell the police that they can’t assist them and not offend any of their customers. Liberty and other safe companies typically don’t build the lock mechanism. Usually it’s Sergeant and Greenleaf or SecureAm that provides them. I believe the electronic ones come with a combination, owner’s reset code (to change the combo) and the Manufacturer’s Reset Code (MRC) to help open it in rare cases of legitimate need. As I mentioned, these codes can be overridden and changed by the customer. And the lock assembly itself is trivially easy to R&R with a new one. My assumption is that most don’t read the fine print, don’t disassemble the inner panels to see how it all works, and just leave factory settings. As of now, the company has stated they will purge the records of individual owners’ MRC if requested. Apparently the offenderati in this tempest fail to realize they could sever the paper trail to their combo themselves. A failure to RTFM, as usual. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > Yeah, I mean, what this tells me is that if I need such a safe, I’m going to try and find me a plain old dumb gears-and-levers one. This is the type I have. different brand, but with high enough TL and Class ratings to make access difficult. As I stated above, replacing the lock (behind the dial) is absurdly easy, but most allow resetting the combination (with the appropriate tool) if you prefer. I’m not that concerned about “back doors”, just prefer to leave electronics out of the equation. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I wonder why the police just do not tell the safe owner that they are getting in one way or another? Be it a cutting torch or angle grinder or some other destructive means or, the owner can hand over the code and leave their expensive safe undamaged. Being difficult in no way benefits them. Are you sure of this? IANAL (hence my questions here) but the law is complex and there are a lot of areas most of us don’t understand. Offhand, I wonder if a cooperative homeowner who willingly opens locks for police is signaling his agreement with the warrant’s validity. Would doing this prohibit his attorney from challenging the warrant later? Thanks to everyone for the replies. Still learning about this. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/48 "2023-10-16T12:42:45Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > My assumption is that most don’t read the fine print, don’t disassemble the inner panels to see how it all works, and just leave factory settings. As of now, the company has stated they will purge the records of individual owners’ MRC if requested. Apparently the offenderati in this tempest fail to realize they could sever the paper trail to their combo themselves. A failure to RTFM, as usual. Yeah, sort of like leaving the Cable Co’s default router password on. Gotta say, I am a bit… don’t know if the right word is amused? that people out there would have been _counting_ on that when faced with _Law Enforcement authorities with a valid warrant_, the company that sold the safe would or should have _by default_ taken a position of “principled” noncompliance. (And let’s face it, a lot of the people crapping all over Liberty Safe on social media would be singing a different tune had it been a search of someone associated with, say, the Friends of Hamas Sporting Club) ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/49 "2023-10-16T13:22:57Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > Offhand, I wonder if a cooperative homeowner who willingly opens locks for police is signaling his agreement with the warrant’s validity. Would doing this prohibit his attorney from challenging the warrant later? IANAL, but AIUI you can comply with illegal police orders/threats and still challenge the legality of their orders later. I think it’s important to get the police to threaten a consequence - “open the safe for us or we’ll destroy it in order to gain access” - and then clearly communicate that you disagree with the legality of their order/warrant/threat and you are only complying under duress to avoid the cost of a replacement safe (or the hassle of an illegal arrest). ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/50 "2023-10-16T13:24:57Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > there is no such thing as a magic box where you can hide your drugs, illegal cash, and other contraband from the police if they have a legal warrant to search your home. I remember a case where the homeowner had incriminating data on his computer, which was kept in a cabinet. If you opened the cabinet door without first disabling a protective mechanism, a powerful magnet turned on and destroyed the hard drive. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/51 "2023-10-16T14:27:40Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I remember a case where the homeowner had incriminating data on his computer, which was kept in a cabinet. If you opened the cabinet door without first disabling a protective mechanism, a powerful magnet turned on and destroyed the hard drive. I wonder how laws regarding destruction of evidence apply here. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/52 "2023-10-16T14:34:47Z")
With any law, there are two issues: are you violating it, and can they generate enough evidence to prove you’re violating it? If you know you have records of illegal behavior, it’s a violation to destroy them. But once they’re destroyed, how will they prove you ever had them to know about? Unless you tell them or do a half-assed job of record destruction. The usual reality is that records leave a shadow record of themselves somehow. And I don’t just mean not-really-erased files left on a computer. If you have a paper ledger, there’s probably a pattern of behavior elsewhere that the ledger memorializes. If the cops can detect and prove the pattern. Counterparties keep records that you don’t. Snitches snitch that you had records. etc. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/53 "2023-10-16T14:40:09Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > If you know you have records of illegal behavior, it’s a violation to destroy them. But once they’re destroyed, how will they prove you ever had them to know about? Yeah, my argument would be that I had sensitive business information on the computer I did not want falling into my competitors hands. Nothing illegal. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/54 "2023-10-16T14:40:15Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > > [@kayaker](#): > > > > I remember a case where the homeowner had incriminating data on his computer, which was kept in a cabinet. If you opened the cabinet door without first disabling a protective mechanism, a powerful magnet turned on and destroyed the hard drive. > > I wonder how laws regarding destruction of evidence apply here. If the person is being investigated and knowingly allows the device to be triggered, I’m sure those laws apply. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/55 "2023-10-16T16:38:03Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > If you know you have records of illegal behavior, it’s a violation to destroy them. But once they’re destroyed, how will they prove you ever had them to know about? > > Yeah, my argument would be that I had sensitive business information on the computer I did not want falling into my competitors hands. Nothing illegal. I destroy data every day. I delete old copies of stuff. My employer has a “retention” policy and anything older than the retention i assigned to it is automatically destroyed. I think it’s generally legal to destroy data until there’s a court order that you retain it. I’ve had some of those. ( my employer is an insurance company, of course we get sued from time to time.) It’s actually a huge pain to carefully retain everything. In practice, they don’t trust me to do that, and i help the legal team and it find all the relevant files, and they make a copy to keep someplace else. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/56 "2023-10-16T16:49:26Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > Are you sure of this? IANAL No, IANAL either. ISTM though that if the warrant covers the contents of the safe then the police WILL get into that safe by some means. As @Machine_Elf mentioned, you can dispute it later in court. And, as also mentioned, making note that you are being coerced and not just doing this out of free will is important (I think). Akin to police at your door asking if they can come in. If you say yes that is on you and if they see something illegal (like drugs on your coffee table) they can arrest you. If you say no then it is on the police to force entry and it is a search and they need a warrant. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/57 "2023-10-16T16:51:27Z")
Yes. Note I said records of known-to-you-to-be-illegal behavior. Which is not the same thing as “all records known to you to exist”. Every big business has a records retention policy. Which has two edges to its blade. One is to retain every record of a particular nature up to a certain specific age. This ensures compliance with specific regulatory requirements to keep certain records for certain durations. And it prohibits their destruction early, thereby ensuring that the corporation has CYA: any staffer who does destroy something early for any reason, good or bad, stupid or smart, deliberate or accidental, legally or not, has violated corporate policy and they are the ones most liable to sanction while the corp is as insulated from responsibility as it can make itself. The second edge is that all records are promptly destroyed once they reach their age criteria. Nothing is retained afterwards. This also has two purposes: It prevents those records from ever being used against the corp if a problem ever comes to light later. And it semi-insulates the corp of responsibility if some record should have been retained due to a court issue but wasn’t due to whatever reason. Which normally is a simple and honest matter of less-than-perfect internal coordination. But once in awhile has an element of blind-eye in it. The key thing is to make every retain / destroy decision / action appear automatic, done in bulk, and routine. Not fact-, incident-, or record-specific. It’s easier to hide a needle of targeted destruction within a great blizzard of routine destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/58 "2023-10-16T17:07:08Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The key thing is to make every retain / destroy decision / action appear automatic, done in bulk, and routine. Not fact-, incident-, or record-specific. It’s easier to hide a needle of targeted destruction within a great blizzard of routine destruction. As I mentioned earlier this is what most VPN companies do. They erase all records of user activity as a matter of course. It is automatic. If a court issues a subpoena for records they simply do not have them and will not get in trouble because they do not have to keep those records (I think they are often headquarterd in other countries too so they are not subject to US law…kinda like flagging your ship in another country to avoid local laws). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/59 "2023-10-16T20:47:20Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > To think of it another way, there is no such thing as a magic box where you can hide your drugs, illegal cash, and other contraband from the police if they have a legal warrant to search your home. But what are they looking for? If a person, they can’t search your safe (unless it is a big safe). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594/60 "2023-10-16T21:05:04Z")
Missouri Attorney General Andrew Bailey has launched an investigation against Liberty Safe. Displaying a complete lack of self-awareness, Bailey said he was doing so out of concerns over government bureaucrats using official investigations to target people for partisan political purposes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-amendment-questions-liberty-safe-controversy/991594.md?page=4)