# Fourth hijacked flight shot down?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [January 3, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431 "2003-01-03T15:57:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@wabe0x90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wabe0x90)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/1 "2003-01-03T15:57:56Z")
What is the chances of a flight crashing into the Pennsylvania countryside due to some sort of internal fight? Doesn’t that seem weird? Wouldn’t hijackers, if they win, keep the flight towards DC, and passengers, if they win, keep the nose up, at least?
Also, what are the chances pieces of the plane would start coming off on the way down, and end up eight miles away?
I’m not certain I believe the government’s story that the plane was forced down by internal action - but I’d certainly like to hear the Straight Dope on the matter.
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### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/2 "2003-01-03T16:02:41Z")
As I understand it, if a large aircraft is put through excessively violent manoeuvres, it suffers strains which the airframe cannot withstand. The breakup of the aircraft in the air follows.
A brawl in the cockpit could have this effect, surely?
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### Author:  [@wabe0x90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wabe0x90)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/3 "2003-01-03T16:06:06Z")
I dunno - there’s another story listed about a 747 doing a roll or loop which says it maybe could do it I think, if you were stupid enough to try. I’m relying on memory here though.
The cockpit’s not that big. I mean, maybe they’d be kicking around the steering wheel, but if you just throw a plane into a dive, I don’t think it’s going to come into pieces.
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### Author:  [@Fish\_Cheer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish_Cheer)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/4 "2003-01-03T16:09:33Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by wabe0x90 \*
> \*\*I dunno - there’s another story listed about a 747 doing a roll or loop which says it maybe could do it I think, if you were stupid enough to try. I’m relying on memory here though. \*\*
For the sake of completeness:
[Is it possible to loop or roll a 747 jet?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_262.html)
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### Author:  [@mister\_me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_me)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/5 "2003-01-03T16:11:10Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by wabe0x90 \*
> \*\*What is the chances of a flight crashing into the Pennsylvania countryside due to some sort of internal fight? Doesn’t that seem weird? \*\*
Doesn’t seem any weirder than a bunch of nut-jobs highjacking the planes in the first place.
I’ve read the ‘shot down’ theory on several webpages and don’t believe it, BUT,…
Even it was shot down, I wouldn’t blame them (Gov.) for doing it! I mean, imagine the devestation (based on the earlier attacks on WTC) that could have occured.
like I said, I don’t think it was shot down but if it was and I found out about it, I would say, good job!
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### Author:  [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/6 "2003-01-03T16:33:07Z")
I don’t believe it was shot down, either. I don’t think the Air Force had enough time to get an armed plane into position to do the job. But is there any consensus on exactly how the passengers brought the plane down? Did they just burst into the cockpit, fight with the hijackers, and point the stick toward the ground? Did they blow the door and depressurize the cabin? It seems like that would have been easier. Do we know how they did it?
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### Author:  [@wabe0x90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wabe0x90)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/7 "2003-01-03T16:49:43Z")
I’d like to know why you don’t think the Air Force had enough time to get a plane into shot range. I’m fairly sure they DID, but the math would be good to see.
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### Author:  [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/8 "2003-01-03T17:37:02Z")
I dont think we will ever know…Its possible it was shot down. Its possible it crashed due to the fight. If the government shot it down, they sure wouldnt tell us. I wouldnt blame them if it they did shoot it down.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/9 "2003-01-03T17:39:40Z")
The voice recorder was played for relatives. I wonder how much they heard.
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### Author:  [@Kilt-wearin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilt-wearin_man)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/10 "2003-01-03T17:40:39Z")
Everything I’ve seen (including eyewitness reports from the ground and air traffic control tapes) states that the F-16’s arrived several minutes after the airliner crashed - too late to have had anything to do with it.
This issue has been rehashed and rehashed on this board and others and in the end, it’s meaningless since the plane crashed in PA, not DC, whether brought down by a missile or by the passengers. Since there is actual evidence (cell phone conversations and background noise) that the passengers rushed the cockpit, that’s the conclusion I’ll stick with. You’re right on one point, **wabe0x90** - the cockpit’s not that big. Several pissed off passengers who know they have nothing to lose crowding into the cockpit to drag the hijackers away from the controls would have a bad effect on the plane’s flight path. Remember, it takes very little airspace to put a plane into a dive, but a lot of altitude to pull it out - especially at high speed, and it’s been pointed out by investigators that the terrorists had those airliners moving as fast as they would go.
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### Author:  [@RadioWave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioWave)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/11 "2003-01-03T17:40:42Z")
The voice recorders _were_ released and available to the media. They indicated that after the cell phone calls, the passengers did gain access to the cockpit and struggle with the terrorists. It seems very plausible that during the struggle, the plane (a Boeing 757) was pushed beyond its limits and started to break up in the air. Either way, once it was in a high speed dive, its very unlikely that the untrained passengers or poorly trained terrorists could have saved it.
Furthermore, having been around USAF bases most of my life, I can tell you that even at altitude, fast moving fighters are extremely loud and someone in Pennsylvania should have noticed them if they were anywhere near the scene of the impact.
[Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/rumors/beamer.htm) mentions the voice recorders.
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/12 "2003-01-03T17:46:35Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by wabe0x90 \*
> What is the chances of a flight crashing into the Pennsylvania countryside due to some sort of internal fight?
Apparently, 100%.
> [@](#):
>
> Doesn’t that seem weird?
Why?
> [@](#):
>
> Wouldn’t hijackers, if they win, keep the flight towards DC,
If the hijackers had remained in control, then they certainly would’ve continued on their course.
> [@](#):
>
> and passengers, if they win, keep the nose up, at least?
Depending on how many passengers knew how to fly the aircraft. There’s bound to be more than just “grab the wheel and aim” to keeping a rather large aircraft level and pointed in a particular direction. Of course, there’s also the issue of landing the thing. A jumbo jet in the air is not someone’s compact auto on the highway.
> [@](#):
>
> Also, what are the chances pieces of the plane would start coming off on the way down, and end up eight miles away?
There used to be a term in military aviation, “TFOA”, which means “Things Falling Off Aircraft.” As mentioned above, this particular aircraft was subjected to more than the anticipated stress and thus started to fall apart.
> [@](#):
>
> I’m not certain I believe the government’s story that the plane was forced down by internal action - but I’d certainly like to hear the Straight Dope on the matter.
Why don’t you believe the government’s reports?
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### Author:  [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/13 "2003-01-03T17:57:09Z")
There is also the distinct possibility that the hijackers intentionally crashed the craft when it became clear that they would not be able to retain control of the airplane. Once the passengers broke into the cockpit, the hijackers had lost control of the situation for all intents and purposes.
The crash scene is inconsistent with a midair breakup–it’s one giant hole in the ground, not pieces strewn over miles of ground. To me, that indicates an intentional crash rather than loss of control/extreme maneuvering. YMMV.
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### Author:  [@shelbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shelbo)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/14 "2003-01-03T18:01:28Z")
The “plane shot down” theory would also require the somewhat unlikely cooincidence of the plane being shot down at the precise time the passengers rushed the cockpit (based on the voice recorder data, which we have). Not impossible, but with no evidence to show that it did happen that way, and evidence that, in fact F-16s arrived **after** the crash, it seems a little silly to believe that the government shot it down, and is now covering up that fact. (But, hey, I guess some people like to believe that the government is involved in **everything** , and is really, really good at keeping secrets!)
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### Author:  [@aahala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aahala)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/15 "2003-01-03T18:03:27Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by wabe0x90 \*
> \*\*
> I’m not certain I believe the government’s story that the plane was forced down by internal action - but I’d certainly like to hear the Straight Dope on the matter. \*\*
Believing something without any evidence one way or another is called faith.
Believing something completely contrary to all available evidence is called foolish.
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### Author:  [@Bongmaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bongmaster)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/16 "2003-01-03T18:32:46Z")
I don’t know how much this means if anything, but I have been flying MS Flight sims since they first came out. I’ve tried many times to do crazy stuff in the larger aircraft provided in the game, and have successfully managed loops, (sloppy) barrel rolls, and other crazy stuff. Its a fairly accurate flight model, but I don’t know if this translates at all into real life.
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### Author:  [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/17 "2003-01-03T18:44:51Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by vibrotronica \*
> \*\*I don’t believe it was shot down, either… Did they just burst into the cockpit, fight with the hijackers, and point the stick toward the ground? Did they blow the door and depressurize the cabin? It seems like that would have been easier. Do we know how they did it? \*\*
I seem to recall (possibly from [movie-mistakes.com](http://movie-mistakes.com)) that aircraft cabin doors open in-then-out. If this is true, then blowing a door requires opening it AGAINST pressure.
Can anybody confirm how the cabin doors operate?
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### Author:  [@Weary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weary)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/18 "2003-01-03T18:49:59Z")
I have no theories either way…however…I would like to know how we managed to get a camera crew live in Afghanistan minutes after the bombing started yet it was several hours before one news team managed to make it ot the crash site of the PA. Plane
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/19 "2003-01-03T18:51:51Z")
I dunno. PA is a big state. How long did it take CNN to get a camera crew to the trapped miners?
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### Author:  [@Fish\_Cheer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish_Cheer)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fourth-hijacked-flight-shot-down/146431/20 "2003-01-03T18:53:53Z")
> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by Monty \*\*\*
> There’s bound to be more than just “grab the wheel and aim” to keeping a rather large aircraft level and pointed in a particular direction. Of course, there’s also the issue of landing the thing. A jumbo jet in the air is not someone’s compact auto on the highway._\*
Of course not. But I _guess_ that there’s a big difference between actions leading to a nose-down crash and actions required to keep the plane at least level (forget about the direction for now) until you can radio anyone who will tell you what to do to get it to the ground safely.
A difference laymen should be able to recognize.
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