Fourth hijacked flight shot down?

Not necessarily.

Airplanes can fly upside down (well, most of 'em…). Usually you roll them inverted (that’s movement about the long axis - lie in bed with your arms outstretched, then roll over from right to left and you’ll get the idea) rather than use pitch (that’s where the tail goes over the nose or vice versa, like if you did a somersault) but in theory both work. In fact, what mangeorge describes is a “loop”. Normally, you loop by going UP, because it’s not a good idea to get too close to the ground. The key thing in a standard loop is to maintain enough airspeed to carry you up and over to the point where gravity starts to pull you down, but late enough you’re coming down nose-first. (If gravity takes over before the top of the loop you come down tail-first. This is a Very Bad Thing is most cases)

Yes, in theory if you held the stick or yoke forward you the airplane would, essentially, perform a forward somersault and you would (eventually, in theory) find yourself upright again. Problem is, in practice, once you point the nose down gravity takes over and it is extremely unlikely you’d have either enough room to complete the manuver or enough power/control to come out of the resulting dive. But the manuver in and of itself is not likely to overstress the airframe and probably it’s been done by somebody somewhere succesfully (although probably not in an airliner). Excessive speed during the manuver - yes, that will cause damage. The question is, would the required airspeed to successfully complete such a loop in a Boeing 757 exceed the Vne? I don’t know. I don’t think anyone does. Such manuvers are not considered when designing passenger jets.

Airplanes are not quite like cars - when you turn the wheel of your car while driving and let go of the wheel, the wheel turns back to neutral and the car comes out of the turn. Airplane controls do tend to return to neutral… but when you turn the yoke to put it into a turn, while they DO tend to return to the neutral position when you let go of them the airplane tends to stay in a banked turn. They do try to design airplanes such as passenger jets so they tend to return to straight and level flight, but this take a lot longer to happen than it does for the steering wheel on your car to return your straight line of travel. Once you get that nose pointed down a significant degree it’s going to tend to stay in that position, even with the yoke moving to neutral on its own. At a certain point, gravity alone will be enough to continue the downward path on it’s own, or even increase the steepness of the dive. You don’t have to “point the nose straight down” to achieve this glorious state, either.

At this point we’re moving beyond my expertise - I’m not an authority on what is, essentially, stunt flying. But all aircraft obey the same laws of physics and all fixed wing aircraft have certain tendencies and limitations (rotorcraft have some different limitations and tendencies, as folks like Johnny L.A. can testify).

OK, let’s see if I can do this without the 40 minute lecture on aerodynamics (which even I would find boring…)

To a large degree, the difference between a “descent” and a “dive” in an airplane is a matter of degree only. I can tootle along straight and level at 110 mph, then adjust the controls so that I will descend at 110 mph even if I’m not touching the controls and even without benefit of autopilot or other mechanical aids. I may be descending at a 3 degree angle or a 10 degree angle or even a 30 degree angle which would be pretty steep - I got a “yikes!” out of a fellow pilot for doing that once without warning. Most people would call a 30 degree descent a “dive”. (Thing is, when I do it, it’s a controlled dive - I know what I’m doing, how I’m going to do it, and how I’m going to get out of it. It’s not an accident but something I plan and perform according to that plan) In other words, no, you don’t have to pull back to maintain the angle. In fact, if you point down steeply enough, you’ll have to pull back to keep the angle from getting worse. Yep, it’s different than motion and direction in ground vehicles. A lot of basic flight training is learning that difference so it gets down to your gut level and you can anticipate how the airplane will react.

Would the passengers know enough to delibrately put an airliner into this position? Depends on the passengers. The hijackers certainly had the knowledge, and, as I said, there was at least one other pilot among the passengers.

On the other hand, someone falling onto the controls during a fistfight could easily put the plane into this situation by accident, and then the question is - is there anyone aboard with the knowledge to get *out of *this situation?

Another factor is the autopilot. An autopilot keeps an airplane on course (in part) by counter-acting any forces like gusts, or perhaps an accidental bump on the controls. As a result, the airplane flies in a straight line. If the autopilot is set and you push on the yoke, the autopilot will push back. So, in our hypothetical cockpit fight, IF the autopilot was set while the bodies were flying about the interior, it would try to compensate for any jars and jolts. Up to a point.

You see, most autopilots will automatically disengage if a certain amount of movement is performed on the controls. For instance, if a pilot has to make a sudden manuver to avoid hitting another airplane, this will allow him to do that without having to first deactivate the autopilot - the assumption is that if the controls are moved that much, it’s time for the human to take over.

Here’s the rub - when the autopilot lets go, it really lets go. All the little compensating things it does to make up for, say, the yoke being more forward than it should be - stop. An autopilot unhitching itself due to sudden extreme inputs can result in a roller coaster-like ride if the pilot isn’t ready to take over immediately. (In some circumstances - such as heavy turbulence - pilots turn off autopilots to prevent these sorts of sudden ooopsies.)

So, let’s go back to Flight 93. The passengers storm the cockpit. A fight breaks out. At first the autopilot struggles to compenstate for the jars and bumps given the controls during the initial scuffle and keeps the airplane more or less on course. (that could account for some minor rolls and yaws and nosing up and down) However, the fighting intensifies and someone is thrown into the control yoke, or falls over it, shoving it forward far enough and quickly enough to deactivate the autopilot. The airplane noses over, there is perhaps a brief interlude of zero-g, then everyone and everything loose in the cockpit slams into the back wall of the cockpit as the acceleration builds up. This may result in the body draped across the yoke(s) falling away, relieving the pressure on the controls and allowing them to return to neutral, but by this point that does no good - gravity and the airflow around the jumbo is now helping to keep the nose down. The speed builds, passes Vne. At some point past that mark, pieces start to peel off the airplane - maybe nothing more than some skin panels, maybe an engine. Then comes the impact.

It would happen within a few seconds. From the viewpoint of anyone inside the airplane, assuming they were concious, they would be long seconds. Me, I’m not sure if I’d be frightened out of my wits or numb with terror. Hard to say - hope never to be in that position.

And it’s all speculation at this point - as I’ve said, we will never know all the details of what happened. There are a number of different ways this could have played out, including a delibrate nose-over suicide by the hijackers. We just don’t know for sure.

Where did the Air Force plan on shooting down these beans? There are some pretty heavily populated areas around DC. A lot of residential communities, for sure.
Peace,
mangeorge (Oh, thanks, Broomstick :))

Doesn’t the Air Force have jets that can lock-and-shoot another aircraft from over 100 miles away? This, if a shoot-down was true, could be why nobody heard an Air Force craft in the area.

I seriously doubt that any Air Force jet would be shooting a US civilian airliner down without getting an initial visual ID to make damn sure that it’s the right aircraft.

(That’s in response to the 100miles-away-to-fire-a-missile proponents).

We covered that. Air Force fighters typically are armed with short to mid range missiles. The Navy has the F-14, which can have that range (I won’t go into details of missile names etc), but the Navy happening to have an armed F-14 in the area is almost laughable.

Also keep in mind that as Skogcat pointed out, they didn’t have a lot of information on which airliner it was, and that is the kind of mistake you DON’T make - they would rather wait until it was closer to DC to shoot it down with positive ID, even if that meant it falling on suburbs. After all, we’re talking about the lives of the entire head of the government (Congress, the House, judges, Cabinet members, slightly lower level officials, etc) versus a few hundred civilians here.

In any case, as I pointed out above, the instances where a commercial jetliner HAS been shot down by a missile result in a large debris field (missile detonates in proximity, usually tearing off the engines and ripping the pressurized plane to pieces).

For what it’s worth, I asked an airline pilot about training and he responded “They (airliners) won’t fly upside down”.

I’d be curious what he based this statement on. I can’t see any reason why an airliner wouldn’t fly upside down. It’s not particularly stressful, and the aerodynamics aren’t anything special.

An airplane wants to fly at its trimmed airspeed. If you push the stick forward, the plane will dive, but the force trying to pull the plane’s nose back up will build. If you let go of the yoke, the airplane will nose up all on its own and attempt to return to its trimmed attitude after a few oscillations.

Passenger Jets are dynamically stable, which means that if you upset the plane from its trimmed attitude and release the controlls, it will attempt to return to that attitude.

A more likely scenario is a spiral dive. If the plane is banked and the nose lowered, it will descend in a spiral. The problem is, if you pull back on the yoke to pull out of the dive, it just tightens the spiral and makes the situation worse.

I can easily imagine a situation in which the the plane falls into a spiral while the struggle continues, then a passenger grabs the wheel and pulls back. Things get worse, the passenger pulls harder, things get worse, warning horns are going off all over the place, the ground is rushing up, everyone’s panicking, and it’s all over.

Another bad thing about a spiral dive is that if you let it get out of control and then you level the wings, there will be an immense force trying to pull the airplane back up, and that can over-stress the airframe. That’s why spiral dive recovery involves IMMEDIATELY pulling the power to idle and levelling the wings. If the spiral is well advanced, you are supposed to push FORWARDS on the column while levelling the wings to prevent the overstress. A non-pilot would have no way of knowing that.

That said, I don’t believe there is any evidence that the airplane came apart in any way before it hit the ground, either by missile or structural failure. That debris field that was found some distance away was made up entirely of light material that could have been launched into the air by the explosion and then floated with the wind.

Another possibility is that the terrorists themselves intentionally crashed the plane when they realized they weren’t going to make their destination.

That’s what I think happened. That, or the passengers tried to take over and unintentionally crashed the plane. The spiral dive sound’s good.
It’s just not the American Hero way to give up and dive a plane into the ground when there’s any chance at all of securing the situation and bringing the plane, intact, to a safe landing. Remember, there were other people on board.
I’d have fought for the plane all the way down.
Peace,
mangeorge

It is in fact very stressful, specifically because of the aerodynamics. What keeps an airplane aloft? Lift, of course. The force from the lift is directed up, or more correctly, vertically from the center of lift in whatever direction the wing is pointed. If you roll an airplane inverted, the wings still produce lift but it is now directed DOWN, toward the ground. To maintain level flight something must counteract that lift. In fighters and aerobatic planes this is done with the horizontal stab or elevator. In any case, inverted level flight requires you to sustain -1g loading on the airplane. Most airliners have -1g or somewhere near there as a structural limit, but this is meant as a mometary limit. All kinds of bad things happen when you negatively load an airplane - fuel pumps can cavitate, oil sumps go dry, etc. I doubt if most large jets even have enough elevator authority to maintain -1g.

This is called an “outside loop” and can be done, but as described before is a much more precise maneuver than just pushing forward and hanging on. I have some friends that did it in a certain military trainer, and they had many failures before they finally got all the airpseeds and power settings figured out.

About that “stick forward = outside loop” thing. I wasn’t suggesting that anyone was trying to loop, I was speculating on what would happen if the stick were forced to the full forward position and held there - without making any other adjustments. As would happen if a body should fall onto it as suggested above.

About flying upside down…

There’s a difference between momentary inverted flight and sustained inverted flight. Since someone has rolled a 707 (I’m pretty sure it was the 707) it is safe to assume that particular model of jumbo is, in fact, capable of momentary inverted flight. But when performing a roll or many other “stunt” manuvers you can maintain a postive g loading throughout, and usually require no more than 1 or 2 g’s - I expect that’s well within the design parameters of airliners.

Sustained upside-down flight is another matter.

I’m going to retreat back to my little Cessnas where I have some authority to stand on. The Cessna Aerobat 150 I fly states very clearly that while momentary inversions are OK, and negative g’s up to (darn, where is that manual?..) around 3 or 4 (if I recall correctly) are also OK, it ALSO states very clearly that anything other than momentary inverted flight is not recommended. Has nothing to do with airframe or the wing. The engine is the problem. The fuel system in that airplane only works when it’s under positive g loads. Fly that sucker upside down more than a few seconds and the gas will drain out of the engine and back into the fuel tanks. After which the engine will stop making noise and supplying power to the prop. And, oh yes, all the oil will drain out of the crankcase. It will glide quite satisfactorially while upside down (provided the pilot stays calm and in control) but you certainly can’t land it on it’s roof! Does the airplane fly upside down? Yes, it does and no, it doesn’t.

Can a big airliner fly upside-down? Well, looking at the wings and such… my guess would be that it could handle momentary inversions. Could the airframe handle the -1 g required for sustained inverted flight? I don’t know. Those airframes have survived some very rugged treatment in the past. They’re not designed with that in mind, but probably could handle it (again, my guess). Here’s another problem - those attachments for those honking big jet engines are designed to hold an engine suspended beneath the wing - could they handle support an engine from below? Don’t know. Airplanes have survived a completely detached engine, but… mmm… that’s getting to be quite a nasty proposition. Next problem - the engine/fuel system. Will it work upside down? I haven’t a clue. Major difference between my itty bitty Cessna and the Boeing: once you get the Cessna right way up again the engine will USUALLY re-start. If a jet quits in flight, it UNLIKELY starts up again while in the air. Certainly it won’t do it automatically.

In other words, it probably is easier for a beat-up old dinky Cessna 2-seater to fly upside down than for a passenger jet.

Would much prefer to avoid the situation. In either airplane. Because while the Cessna is qualified for that sort of gymnastics this little pilot is not.

Well, not really. An inverted wing with the normal aerofoil shape can happily produce upward lift you just need to fly it at a much higher angle of attack than if the wing’s the right way up. Maybe that’s what you were getting at with the elevator? The higher angle of attack also means that you are much closer to the stall when inverted.

I have done many outside loops, the safest way to do it is to roll inverted first and then push. That way you are starting at the bottom of the loop and the worse that can happen is you run out of airspeed on the way and fall off the top. Starting at the top and pushing over risks overspeeding if you don’t have the entry speed right. Also, if you get to the top and are not game to complete the second half of the manoeuvre (negative gs are a bit uncomfortable) you can simply fly away, right way up.

I’d have to quibble with this. The lift is created by the angle of attack of the wing. Inverted, a plane can maintain a positive angle of attack by just pitching up more (pushing forward on the yoke). You can even fly a plane with a flat-bottomed or undercambered airfoil upside down. I don’t see why the airplane wouldn’t have the rudder authority, although the deck angle in the fuselage would be interesting.

Yes, the airplane is now pulling -1G on the airframe instead of +1g. But that is nowhere near the structural limit of the airframe. A modern Jet is certified to be able to withstand a minimum of -1 and +2.5 g’s. That’s the ‘limit load’, and the airliner is expected to withstand that indefinitely without any permanent deformation to the fuselage or flying surfaces. The ‘ultimate load’ at which the airframe comes apart is much higher. 747’s have survived loads of greater than 6 g’s positive.

The trick would be getting the plane on its back and stabilized without overstressing the airframe. A barrel roll would probably be the way to go. And there’d be a hell of a mess in the cabin and lavatories. And as you said, I sure wouldn’t want to guarantee that the engines would keep running.

Why is this still coming up? The OP’s done a drive-by on us, and here everyone is talking about flying airliners upside down.

The Air Force has admitted that they diverted jets, unarmed, and told them to go kamikaze if they could. They also admitted that they would have shot down the jet, but denied having done it. The appearance of the crash site (i.e. crater) tend to bear that out.

Just because some part of the military has a magic missile doesn’t mean they had it ready to use, ready to fire at whatever plane looked suspicious.

Point is, we don’t know the answer, and will never know, especially not to the degree that will placate the most die-hard conspiracy theorists.

Can we let this one drop, and not satisfy every drive-by?

Not quite. It was the 367-80, prototype for the 707. (And somewhat different than the production version, narrower fuselage, I think.) It was in 1955 at the Seafair Gold Cup hydroplane race in Seattle. In fact he rolled it three times, once for practice and twice over the lake.

From Tex Johnston’s autobiography:

It almost sounds dull. There’s also a picture looking out the window with the engine above the wing.

When Tex rolled that 707 he maintained positive g throughout the manoeuvre so the aircraft never really “knew” it was inverted. There’s a big difference between sustained inverted flight with negative g and a roll which involves the aircraft flying through the inverted but maintaining positive g - as I’m sure you know.

This is all very good discussion but a bit of a hijack eh?

Didn’t I just say that, and right from the horse’s mouth?

Yeah you did. I was just emphasising that positive g inverted is totally different from negative g inverted.

Just curious…Does the US have and ground to air missle defense systems set up on the east coast (A guess will do, I know exacts are not public knowledge). I know there are rumors that certain installations have hand held missles but I can visualize with no pproblem some of the higher security facilities have small silo’s.

About the Navy having planes in the area…Correct me if Im wrong but quite a few of the intecept planes that were dispatched came from langley, whose security fence I can see right now from my bedroom. Well there are 2 Naval Air Stations really close to here Oceana a jet base and Norfolk Naval Air which is mainly choppers. Oceana Naval Air Base which is 25 min away has a ton of aircraft, could some of them have been scrambled also?
Vex

I think the problem with scrambling aircraft is that they have to be ready to start with. You can’t just get a crew together, brief them, and have the ground crew ready the aircraft in a few minutes. You can only do it if you have armed aircraft prepared with a standby crew sitting around waiting. I wouldn’t think that the US would have very many aircraft on alert within their own borders every day (although probably they have a few more now than prior to 9/11). So it would seem the best they could do at the time was send a couple of unarmed fighters, and even they didn’t get there in time.

I wonder what those guys would have done if they’d got there in time? My immediate thought is that they could ram the airliner and eject at the last moment.