# FOXNews--Fair and balanced my ass: At last the truth comes out! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 30, 2002, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593 "2002-11-30T03:32:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/21 "2002-11-30T10:32:08Z")
> [@](#): > > What I don’t understand is why Conservatives would have someone as dim as O’Reilly as a spokesperson. What gives? [Monty Python] “Well, I didn’t vote for 'im…” [/Monty Python] ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/22 "2002-11-30T14:13:21Z")
> [@](#): > > extremist-left news sources _The New York Times_ - a bastion of Bolshevism. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/23 "2002-11-30T15:17:31Z")
As for Roger Ailes’ advising the White House, I have heard of the one instance that had been made public. He wrote a letter to chief White House political advisor Karl Rove in the aftermath of Sept 11th, expressing outrage and had thoughts about popular support. This was in the news [Nov 18th](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,70958,00.html), and you picked it up YESTERDAY? [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/11/19/cf.opinion.fox.debate/) had it on their site (front page) a week and a half ago. **WSLer** quoted MOST of a paragraph in Krugman’s [NYT OpEd piece](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/29/opinion/29KRUG.html), the last line is here, added to the first part of the paragraph. I have linked the story so you can read it in context. > [@](#): > > The political agenda of Fox News, to take the most important example, is hardly obscure. Roger Ailes, the network’s chairman, has been advising the Bush administration. Fox’s Brit Hume even claimed credit for the midterm election. “It was because of our coverage that it happened,” he told Don Imus. “People watch us and take their electoral cues from us. No one should doubt the influence of Fox News in these matters.” (This remark may have been tongue in cheek, but imagine the reaction if the Democrats had won and Dan Rather, even jokingly, had later claimed credit.) The [WSJ Ed Board](http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/business/cnn/1102/25ailes.html) thinks it is OK. [Rupert Murdoch](http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/tv/ny-fox3013550nov22,0,6339752.story?coll=ny-television-print) not only says is it OK, but says > [@](#): > > Murdoch said that unlike Ailes, former ABC News producer Rick Kaplan - who later became CNN president - was being partisan when he slept at the White House during the Clinton administration and gave advice on how to deal with embarrassing reports. Kaplan has denied giving advice to Clinton while he was president, although they were friends. As for the content of the letter, Bob Woodward, who broke this in his new book, [_Bush at War_](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743204735/ref%3Dnosim/youwonnowwhat/002-8104100-6986451), says in an exerpt printed in the Washington Post, > [@](#): > > “The American public would tolerate waiting, and would be patient, but only as long as they were convinced that Bush was using the harshest measures possible. The support would dissipate if the public did not see Bush acting harshly.” to which Aisles replied in writing: > [@](#): > > “Bob Woodward’s characterization of my memo is incorrect. In the days following 9/11 our country came together in a nonpartisan support of the president. During that time, I wrote a personal note to a White House staff member as a concerned American expressing my outrage about the attacks on our country. I did not give up my American citizenship to take this job.” FoxNEWS is DEFINITELY left leaning. Their motto is not valid. I give you all this info so YOU can decide about this particular issue. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/24 "2002-11-30T16:22:52Z")
Of course, I meant RIGHT leaning. Come on people, you should have caught that! ---
**Author:** ![Vic\_Ferrari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/dbc845/32.png) [@Vic\_Ferrari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vic_Ferrari)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/25 "2002-11-30T16:38:52Z")
Oh, so **WSLer** deliberately misrepresented Hume’s comment through the use of creative ommission. What is it that he’s accusing Fox News of again? ---
**Author:** ![NutWrench](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nutwrench/32/20193_2.png) [@NutWrench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NutWrench)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/26 "2002-11-30T16:51:16Z")
_\>FOXNews–Fair and balanced my ass_ Did they rotate your tires as well? ---
**Author:** ![Witch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Witch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Witch)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/27 "2002-11-30T17:21:03Z")
**Uncle Bill** , you had me concerned for a minute :eek: ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/28 "2002-11-30T17:24:12Z")
I’m glad you started this thread, **WSLer** , so I can bash the New York Times. They are simply pathetic on this issue. First of all, for America’s “Newspaper of Record” to start a spat with a small cable TV station is demeaning. It shows the depths the Times has sunk to. Second, their accusation makes no sense. The fact that Ailes wrote a letter to the President proves nothing. Any concerned citizen can write to the President. The Times gives Bush advice all the time in their editorials. What does the Times think the letter prove? Presumably it proves that Ailes is conservative. But, everyone already knew that. The guy was a Republican activist. The real question is whether FNC tilts conservative. For the record, I think FNC _does_ tilt conservative, but less so than NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN and NPR tilt liberal. One can easily list liberal commentators on FNC: Geraldo Rivera, Alan Combes, Juan Williams, Cece Connolly, Greta van Susteren, Mara Liason. OTOH one would be hard-pressed to identify half a dozen conservative commentators on any of the other stations I mentioned. Note also Krugman’s exaggeration when he described a single, solitary letter as “Roger Ailes, the network’s chairman, has been advising the Bush administration.” ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/29 "2002-11-30T20:08:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **I’m glad you started this thread, WSLer, so I can bash the New York Times. They are simply pathetic on this issue.** When did the absence of a thread ever prevent you from speaking your mind otherwise?😉 You start enough of them:) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/30 "2002-11-30T20:46:16Z")
Is Fox right leaning? Only if a pig’s ass is pork, the bear is Catholic and the Pope shits in the woods. _Drudge_ leans right, _Buzzflash_ is…somewhat left of center, I check 'em both out for the links. _MediaWhores_ is my all time favorite, as it focuses most especially on pundit shenanigans. For instance: a recent demonstration in Washington DC, with maybe 100,000 participants. I watched Fox, they gave it the merest passing reference, and implied that it was a few hundred listless aging hippies traipsing down Pennsylvania Ave. None of the major TV outlets gave it much coverage. Seems like news to me. Another for instance: the recent elections. Once again, the Apathy Party carried the day by landslide. But the “liberal” media fell all over themselves to shout “landslide” and “mandate” because the remaining 40% split roughly 21 to 19. If you watched Fox’ coverage, you would think the Green Party out polled the Dems. As Mr. Krugman pointed out, as the media serves the interests of its corporate sponsors, not to mention its owners, it is far more likely to present a pro-business view than otherwise, with this caveat: if the news will attract viewers, a la Enron, it will be there, thats where the money is. The Suits will show you pictures of thier mothers as crack whores if there’s a buck in it. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/31 "2002-11-30T21:05:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **First of all, for America’s “Newspaper of Record” to start a spat with a small cable TV station is demeaning. It shows the depths the Times has sunk to.** “A small cable TV station”? Are you fucking kidding? It’s just a couple of guys in their basement with a camera, right? The New York Times is a respected paper but it hardly has an enormous national circulation. Most Americans get their news from TV, and Fox News is a major source. For instance, during the recent election, Fox had the highest rated news show, with 2.2 million viewers. ([cite](http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021107-486507.htm)) ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/32 "2002-11-30T21:13:07Z")
Actually, **chula** , they were the highest rated CABLE news show. No info on the Big Three there. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/33 "2002-11-30T21:31:07Z")
Funny, I haad a feeling I was going to get in trouble with that cite because I hadn’t read it very carefully. Doesn’t change my point - does anyone think 2.2 million people read the NY Times that day? To characterize Fox as David and the NY Times as Goliath is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/34 "2002-11-30T21:33:51Z")
I didn’t even notice the source - I can’t believe I cited the Washington Times! I take it back! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/35 "2002-11-30T21:54:25Z")
In case someone missed the reference in **Uncle Bill’s** post, CNN had a major “Friend of Bill” as president during the Clinton Administration - Rick Kaplan. Kaplan arguably [abused his position](http://www.opinioninc.com/aim/081497.html) in the news industry\* for political ends more than anyone at Fox has been shown to have done. I take Fox’s reporting with a grain of salt, much as I do that of the other networks with an obvious political ax to grind. I dislike Bill O’Reilly and his loudmouthed kinfolk, but I also recognize that they are expressing **opinion** , as obnoxious as it may be. Let’s keep reporting and opinion separate as we launch denunciations. \*yes, I know the source here is just a wee touch to the right, but I don’t think the facts are disputed. And folks who swallow Paul Krugman’s diatribes whole shouldn’t be too quick to cry “partisan”. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/36 "2002-11-30T22:21:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chula \* > \*\*does anyone think 2.2 million people read the NY Times that day? To characterize Fox as David and the NY Times as Goliath is nonsense. \*\* The Sunday NYT has a circulation of about 1.7 million. The Boston Globe, which they own, has a Sunday circulation of over 725,000. That’s a total of almost 2.5 million papers each Sunday. If each paper is read by an average of two to three people, then the total number of readers would be 5 to 7 million. However, the prestige of the Times comes more from their reputation than their circulation. For many decades they have been regarded as America’s leading newspaper. It’s sad to see them going downhill. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/37 "2002-11-30T22:42:08Z")
But this (the 2.2 Million) was a Tuesday. NYT Circulation more like [1.2 million](http://www.prandmarketing.com/pr/opedalerts.htm), and Boston Globe is about [477,000](http://www.dimins.com/boston_globe.html). Your point still stands, just not quite at the same height. Election returns and analysis are certainly owned by broadcast media, and not print. On a given day, FoxNEWS would have fewer than 2.2 million, I would guess, while the papers would keep these numbers. I am also dismayed by the lack of quality in recent years printed by the New York Times. ---
**Author:** ![Stccrd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Stccrd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stccrd)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/38 "2002-11-30T23:18:20Z")
[MPHG] Dennis! There’s some lovely filth down here! [/MPHG] ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/39 "2002-12-01T00:25:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBill \* > \*\*But this (the 2.2 Million) was a Tuesday. NYT Circulation more like [1.2 million](http://www.prandmarketing.com/pr/opedalerts.htm), and Boston Globe is about [477,000](http://www.dimins.com/boston_globe.html). Your point still stands, just not quite at the same height. Election returns and analysis are certainly owned by broadcast media, and not print. On a given day, FoxNEWS would have fewer than 2.2 million, I would guess, while the papers would keep these numbers. \*\* True. However, I chose the Sunday circulation figures because Election Day must have had an unusually large number of viewers at FNC. It seemed fair to compare that figure to the Sunday Times, which has considerably more readers than the Daily Times. Here are some figures for top cable news shows: > [@](#): > > Top five cable news shows: “Fox claimed four of the top five cable news shows for the fifth consecutive month, according to Nielsen Media Research data. Ranked No. 1 was Fox’s The O’Reilly Factor (1.77 million viewers), followed by CNN’s Larry King Live (1.26 million) and Fox’s Hannity & Colmes (1.12 million), The Fox Report with Shepard Smith (1.08 million) and Special Report With Brit Hume (999,000 viewers).” [http://www.mediaresearch.org/cyberalerts/2002/cyb20020617.asp](http://www.mediaresearch.org/cyberalerts/2002/cyb20020617.asp) ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593/40 "2002-12-01T01:59:26Z")
**december** are you still sticking by your characterization of Fox as a little news station being picked on by the big, bad NY Times? Although a cite shouldn’t be necessary to make this point, I feel the need to redeem myself after that crappy cite. Here goes: Daily sales of newspapers in the United States are about [56 million](http://www.newsandtech.com/issues/2000/07-00/nt/07-00_wan.htm). The New York Times has daily sales of around [1.1 million](http://www.infoplease.com/ipea/A0004420.html), which is about 2% of the market. [Forty-one percent of Americans](http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=156) regularly get their news from newspapers, so we can estimate that less than 1% (.82%) of Americans regularly read the New York Times. (This gets around the issue of how many people who subscribe actually read it and how many read each issue.) On the other hand, [22%](http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=156) report that they regularly watch Fox News (and [26%](http://people-press.org/reports/print.php3?ReportID=156) “sometimes” watch). That means that _28 times_ as many people get their news from Fox as from the NY Times. Wow, I wasn’t expecting the statistics to back up my point so well. Even if you find some flaw in my methods of interpreting the statistics, it doesn’t undermine my point, which is that Fox _is_ a major contender in the news market. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foxnews-fair-and-balanced-my-ass-at-last-the-truth-comes-out/139593.md?page=3)