# Fracking as alternative to war **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2016, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391 "2016-06-15T02:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/1 "2016-06-15T02:28:24Z")
We have gone to war in the middle east several times, and oil was one of the motivations for this. The USA was a net exporter of oil for several years until the Saudis brought the price crashing down, and that capacity is still there. It’s just not economical with prices this low. Anyway, I am usually in favor of protecting the environment, but if fracking oil at home can stop us from going to war, I will support it. How much capacity is there, and is it enough to prevent another oil war? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/2 "2016-06-15T02:41:37Z")
> **[National Geographic](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/)** > > Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration. > [@](#): > > The basis for these forecasts are estimates of shale oil reserves. A 2013 Energy Department report on technically recoverable shale oil—the amount that’s recoverable without regard to cost—puts U.S. potential at 58 billion barrels. That’s equivalent to a little more than eight years of U.S. consumption at the current rate of almost 19 million barrels a day. > > The Energy Department’s estimate of “proved reserves” of shale oil—those that can be recovered economically today—is only about ten billion barrels. That’s about a sixth of technically recoverable reserves, and less than a year and a half’s worth of current consumption. Proved reserves include all currently known U.S. oil shale resources-North Dakota Bakken, Texas Eagle Ford, Colorado and Nebraska Niobrara, Texas Barnett, and others. > > In contrast, the proved reserves from just three Middle East nations—Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates—total more than 460 billion barrels. That’s 46 times U.S. shale oil reserves, and more than 12 times the total U.S. oil reserves. There might not be enough. ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/3 "2016-06-15T02:43:40Z")
I’m not a Petroleum Eng. so take my amateur status with a grain of salt. I have some connection with the financing of some of these operations and when you probe deep enough you learn from the P.E. types that fracking gives a nice production spike up front, but sadly tails off fairly quickly. So, it seems like a short term play and not a viable for the 20 or 30 year term. But, it could bridge us to the point where batteries and renewables are relatively cheap and efficient. The Tesla cars might actually be affordable for the average consumer. Who knows? ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/4 "2016-06-15T03:06:31Z")
for a moment there, I thought you were using the Battlestar definition of fracking… ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/5 "2016-06-15T03:12:33Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > [National Geographic | National Geographic](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/12/141219-fracking-oil-supply-price-reserves-profits-environment/) > > There might not be enough. I was under the impression that natural gas is a larger result of fracking than oil and that the US has very large amounts of natural gas. Not true? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/6 "2016-06-15T08:12:31Z")
My brain thought of it as an alternative spelling of fragging, which would probably end wars. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/7 "2016-06-15T08:30:55Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > I was under the impression that natural gas is a larger result of fracking than oil and that the US has very large amounts of natural gas. > > Not true? According to the recently deceased former CEO of Chesapeake Energy, Aubrey McClendon, the US has two Saudi Arabias worth of oil equivalent in natural gas. His comments can be seen in the _60 Minutes_ clip below starting at 1:14. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuGrawkuA2s) ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/8 "2016-06-15T20:39:17Z")
We’ve got tons of natural gas. On top of SA’s video WPX just hit a well that should at least triple the reserves of the pieance basin in the last month. There is a steep decline on fraced wells that also generally means they have small drainage radiuses and in fill drilling will be used to keep fields active longer. There are also a lot of field that went dry with vertical sand production that are now having horizontal shale infill wells that are not counted in the 3P reserves. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/9 "2016-06-15T20:52:45Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > for a moment there, I thought you were using the Battlestar definition of fracking… Make frak, not war. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/10 "2016-06-15T21:40:41Z")
Hey, how about this: as an alternative to either pumping water into the ground to try to push out low quality petroleum so we can continue exhausting net carbon dioxide into the atmosphere OR spending trillions of dollars pursuing invasions and putting bases in the Middle East, we put all of that money and effort into developing alternative low carbon footprint transportation fuels, more efficient vehicles, and advancing sustainable net energy production technology (solar, wind, full burnup nuclear fission, hybrid fission-fusion). Then we can give fuck all about a bunch of towel-headed repressed homosexual religious freaks living in a desert and can make more rational decisions about where and how much we want to engage in military adventurism around the globe, while enjoying greater economic and social stability at home. Just a thought. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/11 "2016-06-15T21:53:08Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Hey, how about this: as an alternative to either pumping water into the ground to try to push out low quality petroleum so we can continue exhausting net carbon dioxide into the atmosphere OR spending trillions of dollars pursuing invasions and putting bases in the Middle East, we put all of that money and effort into developing alternative low carbon footprint transportation fuels, more efficient vehicles, and advancing sustainable net energy production technology (solar, wind, full burnup nuclear fission, hybrid fission-fusion). Then we can give fuck all about a bunch of towel-headed repressed homosexual religious freaks living in a desert and can make more rational decisions about where and how much we want to engage in military adventurism around the globe, while enjoying greater economic and social stability at home. > > Just a thought. > > Stranger This is actually what I would think of as ideal. I highly support getting off oil and giving up on Iraq. But until we get rid of all oil-burning machinery, we need to get it from somewhere. Fracking might be preferable to war. Are the environmental issues as bad as the number of soldiers who get killed, or injured? What about the foreign civilians who didn’t get to make the choice but still suffer in the war? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/12 "2016-06-15T23:27:56Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Hey, how about this: as an alternative to either pumping water into the ground to try to push out low quality petroleum so we can continue exhausting net carbon dioxide into the atmosphere OR spending trillions of dollars pursuing invasions and putting bases in the Middle East, we put all of that money and effort into developing alternative low carbon footprint transportation fuels, more efficient vehicles, and advancing sustainable net energy production technology (solar, wind, full burnup nuclear fission, hybrid fission-fusion). Then we can give fuck all about a bunch of towel-headed repressed homosexual religious freaks living in a desert and can make more rational decisions about where and how much we want to engage in military adventurism around the globe, while enjoying greater economic and social stability at home. > > Just a thought. > > Stranger What will we watch explode though? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/13 "2016-06-16T00:02:18Z")
It is spelled 'ploded. Not explode. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/14 "2016-06-16T03:04:10Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > What will we watch explode though? We’ve got a few hundred of [these](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ct-s6NA-tk) sitting around in bunkers suitable for your 'sploding needs. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/15 "2016-06-17T14:27:06Z")
Just as a note the tracking doesn’t force the oil/gas out of the rocks. It is designed to break the rocks open and fill the fractures with sand to create path ways through that allow the oil to flow faster and easier. That being said I’d be all for more research in clean energy. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/16 "2016-06-17T20:05:36Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Hey, how about this: … we put all of that money and effort into developing alternative low carbon footprint transportation fuels, more efficient vehicles, and advancing sustainable net energy production technology (solar, wind, full burnup nuclear fission, hybrid fission-fusion). Sounds pretty good. As it happens, we (that is to say many companies and research groups, with generous government funding) have been working hard on that for a long time. The State of California originally passed a law requiring that a certain percentage of cars sold in the state, by a certain date, by zero-emissions. Do you know when they passed that law? [1990](http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/smart-transportation-solutions/advanced-vehicle-technologies/electric-cars/californias-zero-emission-1.html#.V2RSn_krLb0). Yet if you go to an ordinary dealer today, you won’t find any hydrogen-powered or battery-only cars. A tiny number exist, but as far as a means of reducing CO2 emissions or getting us free from Saudi oil, it’s been wasted effort. Renewables make people feel warm and fuzzy, but unfortunately most people want to drive their cars even when it’s not sunny, and run electric devices when it’s not windy. Without large government subsidies, those sources [aren’t](http://dailycaller.com/2014/05/06/warren-buffett-i-build-wind-turbines-to-lower-my-corporate-taxes/) financially sustainable. Fission and cold fusion and stuff like that is science fiction. More old-fashioned nuclear plants would be a good thing, but the public is paranoid about radiation so good luck finding politicians who support that. So for the short term, we’ll be powering almost all vehicles and a substantial part of our electric plants with fossil fuels. The only question is what fossil fuels, and from where? For generations we’ve imported Saudi oil, turning a blind eye to their support of terrorism and human rights abuses. But we don’t have to. We could put an embargo on Saudi oil. We’ve certainly done so to other countries. We could do so to all Arab countries, and Russia as well. This would cause oil prices to rise in the USA, certainly. But that price increase would give people motivation to look for other ways to provide fuel and usable energy. It would both motivate more oil drilling at home, and in friendly countries like Canada, and it would motivate companies to research alternative fuels, which would be good for the environment. So what’s not to like? ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/17 "2016-06-18T15:28:07Z")
Yup, all that wonderful Iraqi and Afghan oil that we’re just rolling in… :smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack: ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fracking-as-alternative-to-war/757391/18 "2016-06-18T15:46:58Z")
Fracking gets short-term results, which is crucial for short-term business models focused around share price. Fracking also has a long-term benefit to any business relying on natural resources: it is creating legal precedents that weaken environmental protection and the rights of small landowners.