# France and the cartoons of Mohammed; what's your take? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221 "2020-10-29T16:49:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/1 "2020-10-29T16:49:46Z")
I’ve been thinking about this topic for days and still don’t know what to make of it. On the one hand, Islamic murder of teachers and cartoonists (beheading of Samuel Paty recently; attack on Charlie Hebdo years ago) is obviously taking things too far. On the other hand, one can also argue that people who are drawing these cartoons of Mohammed are deliberately seeking out trouble. On top of that, a [French governmental building had Mohammed cartoons prominently projected onto its side.](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/charlie-hebdo-cartoons-muhammad-samuel-paty-teacher-france-b1224820.html) So - who’s right here? ISTM it’s “both are partially wrong” - the French cartoonists are deliberately trolling Muslims needlessly by drawing cartoons of Mohammed, but these Muslims (the violent few, not the peaceful majority) are also way overreacting to being trolled, and also can’t understand that free speech means having to tolerate being trolled to a certain extent. What _should_ be the reaction of Muslims? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/2 "2020-10-29T16:56:19Z")
“Paty, who was 47, taught history and geography at the Collège du Bois d’Aulne. He used the cartoons in a class on freedom of expression – a core tenet of French life.” “He had warned Muslim students about the images in advance, offering them the chance to opt out of the session.” > **[A teacher is beheaded, and France's war over secularism, freedom of speech...](https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/21/europe/france-secularism-macron-samuel-paty-intl/index.html)** > > France was irrevocably changed by the Paris terror attacks of January 2015. Three days of violence began with a massacre at the offices of satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, which had previously published controversial cartoons depicting the Prophet... I do not see that as “trolling”, nor do I equate the freedom to question or even mock religion with murderous attacks on people who do so. As for Muslims in general, they will be judged on how they react to the actions of violent extremists within their ranks. The same goes for _any_ group which has members that do despicable things. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/3 "2020-10-29T16:58:35Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > On the other hand, one can also argue that people who are drawing these cartoons of Mohammed are deliberately seeking out trouble. “One” could argue that walking down the street in a tight skirt means a woman is “asking for it,” but that would reflect more on “one” than on the validity of the response being defended by such an argument. > [@Velocity](#): > > the French cartoonists are deliberately trolling Muslims needlessly by drawing cartoons of Mohammed Or they’re making a point specifically about the ahistorical, unsustainable strain of Islam that insists that the no-representation principle is the only valid form of the religion, evidence of the many Muslim groups that do not subscribe to it notwithstanding. Or they’re making a point about free speech. Or they’re satirizing extremism and fundamentalism in particular. > [@Velocity](#): > > What _should_ be the reaction of Muslims? Probably something other than cutting off people’s heads and doing mass shootings, but that seems to be a controversial take in some circles. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/4 "2020-10-29T17:03:11Z")
Radical fundamentalists of all religions are dangerous nutjobs. Any response should reflect the laws of their place of residence, and the rights of their fellow citizens. If they want to live in a state that enforces their extreme religious beliefs and intolerance, they should move to such a state. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/5 "2020-10-29T17:14:20Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > On the one hand, Islamic murder of teachers and cartoonists (beheading of Samuel Paty recently; attack on Charlie Hebdo years ago) is obviously taking things too far. That’s a bold stance you’re taking there. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/6 "2020-10-29T17:19:09Z")
I don’t think that the French are doing this to “troll” the Muslims – they’re not doing it to provoke them or to get a rise out of them. They’re doing it to demonstrate that they do not accept that their freedom of expression – even if it means reproducing inflammatory cartoons – is not dictated and circumscribed by any outside force. If it is, they have “given in” to terrorism. In other words, they’re demonstrating for Freedom of Expression, which we say that we’re in favor of. It should be noted that there is no explicit Koranic forbidding of such depictions, although some of the _hadith_ do. Nevertheless, there have been depictions of the prophet at different times in the history of Muslim civilization. I knew about ones where his face was veiled, but was surprised to learn several years ago that there are even depictions in Muslim art of his face. Things change with time and place. See here – [Depictions of Muhammad - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad) There have certainly been depiction of Muhammad in Western art over a period of many centuries. Most of this has caused little backlash. But the satirical depictions definitely struck a nerve, and caused violent reactions from extremist groups. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/7 "2020-10-29T17:37:44Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Any response should reflect the laws of their place of residence, and the rights of their fellow citizens. If they want to live in a state that enforces their extreme religious beliefs and intolerance, they should move to such a state. Plus one to this. The cartoonists are doing nothing wrong, according to French law, and in fact should be encouraged to exercise this kind of freedom of speech. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/8 "2020-10-29T17:44:19Z")
Unlike message boards, in real life freedom of speech is vastly more important than hurt feelings. It’s nice to see the French making a principled stand. It’s practically extinct. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/9 "2020-10-29T18:01:27Z")
There’s no “both sides” between fundamentalist killers and free speech teachers. What’s to debate? It’s wrong to kill in response to mere speech, whether or not it’s considered blasphemous by some. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/10 "2020-10-29T18:10:27Z")
I just want to say congratulations to the OP for getting **octopus** and **iiandyiiii** on the same side of an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/11 "2020-10-29T18:50:10Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Plus one to this. The cartoonists are doing nothing wrong, according to French law, and in fact should be encouraged to exercise this kind of freedom of speech. Essentially, there is no such thing as a right that exists in theory but not in practice. If we have a right to speech, even speech that may be offensive to some, then we have no duty to self-censor. I’m no free speech absolutist, but I am closer to that extreme than others might be, and that’s my view of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/12 "2020-10-29T19:11:49Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > As for Muslims in general, they will be judged on how they react to the actions of violent extremists within their ranks. The same goes for _any_ group which has members that do despicable things. Except it doesn’t. White Christians are almost never asked to denounce, as a group, all incidents of violent extremism committed by white Christians. – Using the cartoons, after appropriate warning, in a class about journalism or religion or freedom of speech, isn’t trolling. Using them in a genuine defense of freedom of speech isn’t trolling either. Using such cartoons primarily to piss off Muslims in general is trolling, and is being a jerk. People should not be murdered for being jerks, but snarling at them is OK, and treating them as jerks whose opinions should be discredited is fine – in fact I’d recommend it. Deciding whether a particular person or publication is genuinely defending freedom of speech against murderers, or just likes to piss off Muslims because they’re bigoted, is in some cases going to be difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/13 "2020-10-29T19:16:00Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I just want to say congratulations to the OP for getting **octopus** and **iiandyiiii** on the same side of an issue. Not common, right? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/14 "2020-10-29T19:17:54Z")
Not common at all. I think you’re the only one in the thread so far that is both-sidesing this in any way. Everyone else is saying that depictions of Mohammed are just fine and screw the extremists killing people. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/15 "2020-10-29T19:20:48Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Using such cartoons primarily to piss off Muslims in general is trolling, and is being a jerk. People should not be murdered for being jerks, but snarling at them is OK, and treating them as jerks whose opinions should be discredited is fine – in fact I’d recommend it. This is more the sort of discussion I was hoping for. The point isn’t “Is murder OK?” (of course not,) or “is free speech important?” (of course,) but rather, what are people like Muslims supposed to do when or if someone does something blatantly offensive and has no intention of stopping? They could or should ask politely (don’t know if that happened) but it may in large part due to that, in many Middle Eastern countries, there probably is little or no concept of “asking politely to stop” if someone insults Mohammed or does something blatantly un-Islamic. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/16 "2020-10-29T19:24:24Z")
They should do what Christians did with Piss Christ. Complain, stamp their feet, say that it’s offensive and ask people to stop. Violence is completely inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/17 "2020-10-29T19:28:06Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > in many Middle Eastern countries, there probably is little or no concept of “asking politely to stop” Cite, please? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/18 "2020-10-29T19:32:41Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Cite, please? Take [blasphemy laws](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law), for instance. (The map on that Wikipedia page indicates nearly all Middle Eastern nations authorize imprisonment or death for blasphemy.) Pakistan [recently got coverage for this](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/08/accusations-of-blasphemy-in-pakistan-continue-to-endanger-lives/). The penalty for anti-Islamic blasphemy isn’t going to be a polite “please cease and desist.” ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/19 "2020-10-29T19:40:03Z")
That doesn’t mean there’s no concept of asking politely to stop. Saying that people have made something illegal is not the same thing as saying they’re incapable of understanding the existence of other options. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221/20 "2020-10-29T19:47:20Z")
I think it’s ok to be offended by drawings. It’s not ok to harm someone because of drawings. It’s really really not ok to harm someone who didn’t even draw or display the drawings. Continuing to display these drawings will no doubt lead to more violence, but bowing to terrorists will do more harm. Maybe normalizing Mohammad drawings will become some sort of aversion therapy, the new normal eventually. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/france-and-the-cartoons-of-mohammed-whats-your-take/924221.md?page=2)